ToB vs Core Classes

[shilsen]

Honestly, it's fine as is. The warblade is on par with the barbarian.

Agreed. I personally think both swordsage and crusader are stronger classes than the warblade. And that while all three may outclass the fighter, they work just fine in a game with the other classes.

 

[Nail]

I was thinking to do something like you, specially changing the HD to d10. So, the recomendation is: "Take careful with warblade" ?

First: It's clear I'm in the minority.

Second: Just be prepared to adjust the ToB:Bo9S classes during play. Be sure your players know you may house rule stuff after you've seen how it plays. It's not a perfect solution, but given the mixed-bag of ToB:Bo9S, it's necessary.

 

[Mistwell]

I agree with Nail. A couple of maneuvers need adjustments, and you might not notice until you see it in play. In my opinion, you should nix White Raven Tactics, and adjust the lower-level maneuver that does +8d6 damage to be +4d6 damage (I think it is a typo), for example.

 

[blargney the second]

In my opinion, you should nix White Raven Tactics

QFT. WRT is banned in my games. It played more powerful than 3.0 haste.

 

[Nifft]

I've allowed ToB:Bo9S in my game. Seen a Swordsage / Cleric / RKV, a straight Swordsage and a Warblade -- apparently we don't like the complexity of Crusaders. IMHO, they're all fine as-is, except:

- Iron Heart Surge: cannot end area effects, can only remove conditions and effects targeted at the initiator.
- White Raven Tactics: grants a single Move, or a single melee attack, to an ally (not yourself).
- Soaring Raptor thingy (the one where you jump and stun) has a Fort DC of 10 + maneuver level + ability bonus (Strength I think), not a Fort DC equal to your Jump check.
- War Master's Charge is limited to you + 10 allies, and the Stun effect has a Fort DC 19 + ability mod. You're unlikely to get even that many, but in theory it's broken. So I remove the theoretical badness but leave the practical goodness.

Cheers, -- N

 

[blargney the second]

- Iron Heart Surge: cannot end area effects, can only remove conditions and effects targeted at the initiator.
- White Raven Tactics: grants a single Move, or a single melee attack, to an ally (not yourself).
- Soaring Raptor thingy (the one where you jump and stun) has a Fort DC of 10 + maneuver level + ability bonus (Strength I think), not a Fort DC equal to your Jump check.
- War Master's Charge is limited to you + 10 allies, and the Stun effect has a Fort DC 19 + ability mod. You're unlikely to get even that many, but in theory it's broken. So I remove the theoretical badness but leave the practical goodness.

How have those changes worked out in play? They read well.

 

[seans23]

I've been DM'ing Expedition To Castle Ravenloft.

So far, we've had three deaths: a swordsage, a crusader, and a cleric.
The fighter, warlock, and bard have all survived.

So three overpowered deaths, while the three underpowered classes have survived. Go figure.

 

[blargney the second]

Overpowered or overconfident?

 

[Nail]

- Iron Heart Surge: cannot end area effects, can only remove conditions and effects targeted at the initiator.
- White Raven Tactics: grants a single Move, or a single melee attack, to an ally (not yourself).
- Soaring Raptor thingy (the one where you jump and stun) has a Fort DC of 10 + maneuver level + ability bonus (Strength I think), not a Fort DC equal to your Jump check.
- War Master's Charge is limited to you + 10 allies, and the Stun effect has a Fort DC 19 + ability mod. You're unlikely to get even that many, but in theory it's broken. So I remove the theoretical badness but leave the practical goodness.

Good changes, and ones I've seen (as I'm sure you have) in other threads.

So Nifft: You haven't found Moment of Perfect Mind to be an issue? (I nerfed it to a flat +6 morale bonus.)

 

[Nifft]

Good changes, and ones I've seen (as I'm sure you have) in other threads.

Ones I've typed in other threads, too.

So Nifft: You haven't found Moment of Perfect Mind to be an issue? (I nerfed it to a flat +6 morale bonus.)

Not even slightly. It either comes up not at all (in which case the Warblade wasted one of his very few slots), or the Enchanter / Illusionist / gaze-attack critter / dominate-at-will Vamprie manages to throw a Will save more than once every 2-3 rounds.

And then the party hits 16th level and everyone walks around with a mind blank all day.

Cheers, -- N