Tome of Battle: Bo9S classes in actual play?

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Yep.

Mind you, how often can you charge in the middle of battle? Not often. It's not that great.

You can recharge as a swift action any time you can get a full attack, too, not just a charge.

The warblade certainly does! Fighters are better with their normal attacks than Warblades. Now, you need a PHB2 fighter, but that should be assumed.

I was comparing just core rules. The vast amount of non-core supplements makes balance arguments difficult.

Notes:
* Warblades have no proficiency with ranged weapons. None at all.

Not even longbows? That wasn't something I noticed. Is there any reason you can't use a throwing axe? (Obviously it's not nearly as good as a longbow...)

* Warblades do not have the bonus feats that Fighters do. The bonus feats that the warblade does get can only be described as weak. Nice, but weak.
* Warblades suffer badly from MAD.

Absolutely not! I haven't the foggiest clue where this comes from. You don't need to have high Int, and that's the only stat that gives warblades a benefits that fighters don't get. In fact, because of the high hit points, you can sack Con a bit in return for higher Dex or Int.

When playing my warblade character, I didn't feel MAD affected me one iota. As I've said earlier, if my character weren't a strategist, he would have decreased his Int (from 14 to 10). I would have built him the same way I would build a barbarian (which hardly suffers from MAD).

* Warblades can't wear heavy armour. This means that at low levels, they are analogous to barbarians: high damage, low AC. (At high levels, mithral armour is the norm).

This is true.

* Warblades get Weapon Spec at 6th level. So, at levels 4-5, Fighters deal more damage. At levels 6-7, they're almost on par for normal attacks (and it's a toss-up as to whether the warblade's manuevers are better than the fighter's iterative attacks). At level 8, Greater Weapon Focus and later feats give the Fighter the advantage.
* A human fighter at level 1 can have Weapon Focus, Power Attack, Cleave. That's a significant combination that keeps its usefulness throughout the fighter's life. That bonus feat is just useful; the ability to cleave really keeps them on par. (Sure, the human warblade can go PA/Cleave, but loses out on Weapon Focus...)

Cheers!

I dunno ... there aren't that many good feats out there for fighters (not counting PH II feats, which aren't actually listed in your analysis). I don't really feel that missing out on feats is a big deal. Furthermore, there are some fairly powerful sublime feats that are nice, too. I was aiming for the White Raven one that gives bonuses if you can pull off a Diplomacy DC 20 check. (I think I was a level short for it.)

I don't think having to wait two levels to get what a fighter can get is a big deal, either.

 

[Lordgrae]

I've been running a Age of Worms campaign. And have had a character play a Swordsage/Monk/Master of Nine. I've also had a character play a Warblade/Wizard/Jade Pheonix Mage.

At low levels, I found the Swordsage wasn't overly offensive, but when he got his AC bonus while in light armor, his AC went up significantly. Add to that he uses the "Dex to melee dmg while in a Shadow Hand Stance" feat, and he doesn't use Str at all. Just Dex and Wisdom.

Overall, there are a few maneuvers that bother me. At 5th level, there is a stance that gives 2d6 Sneak attack. Although not that useful at higher levels, it's significant at the level its available.

The movement maneuvers, are especially good. One is available at 3rd level I believe. The only balancing factor is that they need Line of Sight. Otherwise, its a small Dim Door effect, almost at will. At higher levels, the Swift action one is also extremely good, as it allows immediate positioning for maneuvers. (Eg, Swift action to move up, and then use Time Stands still to get 2x Full Attacks.)

Later on, I ended up houseruleing that the "spell"ish abilities (Shadow choke, Fire Snake, etc) are effected by SR. Simply requiring a Touch Attack wasn't good enough for me. In one encounter they chased off an Adult Black dragon primarily using that ability.

I also ruled that all maneuvers are supernatural abilities. Not just the ones specifically marked in the book. I feel they missed a couple that should be marked. So I simply marked them all. This has had no game effect at all.

The Swordsage hasn't had any problems being the groups "main tank" for the majority of the adventure.

As for the Warblade/Wizard/Jade Pheonix Mage, he hasn't really showed for a vast majority of the adventure. At low levels, he combined Blade of Blood, and some Maneuver to deal a extremely large (for the level) attack. I fixed that by Houseruling Blade of Blood.

At higher levels, he is using some Maneuver that allows him to blow Con for +2d8 to an attack per point blown. He has a high con score, so this ends up being an extremely large damage attack. He then gets a Restoration, or uses his Jade Phoenix death/rebirth ability.

End Thoughts:

Overall, I mainly dislike certain maneuvers, and the ability to use them, essentially, at will. If they were per day, I would have liked the book significantly more. As it stands now, I probably won't allow it into my next campaign as I believe it is slightly overpowered as a whole, with some parts being significantly overpowered individually.

This does make me sad though, as I do enjoy a more fantastic fighter then just attacking.

These were just my surface thoughts on the characters thus far. Certainly not a full scale review. So, take it as you may, and YMMV.

 

[Kurotowa]

Not even longbows? That wasn't something I noticed. Is there any reason you can't use a throwing axe? (Obviously it's not nearly as good as a longbow...)

No ranged weapons, not even longbows. Throwing weapons they can use, and in fact there's a PrC based around that. But a majority of maneuvers only work with a melee attack. So it's a major hole in their abilities.

 

[Nifft]

Not even longbows? That wasn't something I noticed. Is there any reason you can't use a throwing axe? (Obviously it's not nearly as good as a longbow...)

No longbows. They can use any weapon that is also a melee weapon (so many thrown weapons are fine). As you note, thrown weapons are often inferior.

Cheers, -- N

EDIT: Ack! Scoop'd!

 

[MerricB]

You can recharge as a swift action any time you can get a full attack, too, not just a charge.

I was comparing just core rules. The vast amount of non-core supplements makes balance arguments difficult.

It does. However, if you just compare core rules, the Warblade can't be played.

With any analysis of the Warblade vs. Fighter, the PHB2 must be considered.

Not even longbows? That wasn't something I noticed. Is there any reason you can't use a throwing axe? (Obviously it's not nearly as good as a longbow...)

Not even longbows.

I don't think having to wait two levels to get what a fighter can get is a big deal, either.

It matters, esp. when not a bonus feat. The fighter chain of WF, WS, GWF, GWS and Melee Weapon Mastery is fairly significant, esp. when then added to Improved Critical and some special attack feats. The Warblade doesn't have that option.

Cheers!

 

[brehobit]

I personally think the warblade is the weakest of the three Bo9S classes, but I do disagree with some of your points:

* The bonus feats that the warblade does get can only be described as weak. Nice, but weak.

I think some of the feats are anything but weak.
Blade Meditation, blind-fight, combat reflexes, improved Initiative, and White Raven Defense are all good feats. Blind-fight, combat reflexes and improved initiative are VERY commonly taken by fighters IME. Blade meditation is _huge_ for tiger claw and diamond mind. The skill bonus and the +1 DC bonus is huge. The +1 damage bonus for strikes is just icing. White Raven Defense can generally give you AND your adjacent allies an unnamed +1 AC bonus. That sure beats any other AC boosting feat I know of.

Some of the others suck, but hey, you only get 4 of them, so 5 good ones is plenty.

* Warblades suffer badly from MAD.

Badly? They add one stat over a barbarian, INT. And a 12 or 14 is just fine. There is some MAD, but it really isn't too bad.

* Warblades can't wear heavy armour. This means that at low levels, they are analogous to barbarians: high damage, low AC. (At high levels, mithral armour is the norm).

If that is a really big issue, most of the time a single level dip into fighter will solve it (and throw in a bonus feat to boot). IME this pretty minor as heavy armor fighters seem pretty rare unless they are dwarven or always mounted.

Where I think warblades are really broken is a one-level dip after 8th level. The one-level dip would allow you to:

Give whole party +2 to damage against flanked opponents (Tactics of the wolf)
Usually allow an ally to take a second action (White Raven Tactics)
Use conentration in place of will save (Moment of perfect mind)
XXXX (mostly useless white raven 1st level maneuver to allow the first two)
Add your INT bonus to your reflex save (1st level warblade power)

Tack on the extra hit point, 2 extra skill points, and skill list choices this is a really nice dip. Losing 1 fighter level is really pretty minor in exchange for what you get...

 

[Seeten]

All the ToB classes are front loaded extremely

 

[Nifft]

Barbarians:
1/ Don't much need Int or Cha, so they can put everything spare in Wisdom; and
2/ Get a bonus to Will saves when they Rage.

Warblades:
1/ Want Intelligence (for skills and class feats) and/or Cha (for tactical feats and maneuvers); and
2/ Have one Counter (and of course Iron Heart Surge) to help with their Will saves.

... but a Warblade can only have 4 (or fewer) maneuvers readied until level 10. So a Warblade can gain protection against Will saves, at the cost of ~25% of his combat trick capacity. (Warblades really suffer in this department.)

Master of the Nine helps greatly in Will save and in maneuvers readied, but of course it will cost you all your bonus feats...

Cheers, -- N

 

[blargney the second]

[...] of course it will cost you all your bonus feats...

I like analyses that take opportunity costs into account. For everything you decide to do, there are multitudes of other options that you preclude.

 

[blargney the second]

I personally think the warblade is the weakest of the three Bo9S classes

That's been my feeling as well. The warblade has pretty good DPS, but just doesn't gel together for anything else quite as well as the crusader and swordsage do.