Tome of Battle: Bo9S classes in actual play?

[Elemental]

The 9th level is so you have a initiator level of 5 (8 "other levels"/2 plus one real one) and so can get third level abilities (where the stances start getting good).

Mark

I think you still need prerequisite manouveres or stances, so you still need 1 manouvere / stance of level 1 or 2 before you can take any of level 3.

 

[MerricB]

If that is a really big issue, most of the time a single level dip into fighter will solve it (and throw in a bonus feat to boot). IME this pretty minor as heavy armor fighters seem pretty rare unless they are dwarven or always mounted.

Losing a level of progression in Warblade is a pretty big thing. All those initiator levels take one more level to achieve.

Where I think warblades are really broken is a one-level dip after 8th level. The one-level dip would allow you to:

Give whole party +2 to damage against flanked opponents (Tactics of the wolf)
Usually allow an ally to take a second action (White Raven Tactics)
Use conentration in place of will save (Moment of perfect mind)
XXXX (mostly useless white raven 1st level maneuver to allow the first two)
Add your INT bonus to your reflex save (1st level warblade power)

I'm just trying to work out what PC would go into Warblade to get that Moment of Perfect Mind. It isn't like Concentration is a class skill for most other classes.

Tactics of the Wolf only gives bonuses to you and the allies who are *also* flanking with you. Against an ogre, it might give that damage bonus to three PCs. If they can manuever into position, of course. It's not very strong.

An Int bonus to Reflex save sounds really good until you realise you have a +1 bonus to Int. (If that).

White Raven Tactics only allows a PC an additional action if the combat then ends that round. Hmm. Otherwise you just reshuffle the turn order.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Barbarians:
1/ Don't much need Int or Cha, so they can put everything spare in Wisdom; and
2/ Get a bonus to Will saves when they Rage.

Warblades:
1/ Want Intelligence (for skills and class feats) and/or Cha (for tactical feats and maneuvers);

Nope. Not that I noticed. My character would have cheerfully taken an Int 10 and Cha 8. I only took a higher Cha (12) because of my character concept (using White Raven, which did not require Charisma, and except for one feat didn't even require Diplomacy).

I complained before about the short skill list. I don't think a high Int is that useful when it comes to skills. A lower Int would actually make designing the character easier - I don't want to be "forced" to take ranks in Balance (no matter how useful it might be) when it doesn't fit my character concept.

and
2/ Have one Counter (and of course Iron Heart Surge) to help with their Will saves.

I didn't take IHS. I did take the counter that lets me use Concentration for Will saves. That thing is amazing! It didn't bother me that I had to give up 25% of my maneuvers because it's so useful!

It's like a wizard complaining that they have to give up an 8th-level spell slot to cast Moment of Prescience. If you accept it as balanced, then take it. If you think it's weak, don't take it.

I think the Concentration as Will save counter is balanced, not overpowered or broken (unlike certain other maneuvers or parts-of-the-package). You can only use it once per round, and probably aren't going to use it more than once per combat (unless the combat takes a long time and you recharge, and the recharge scheme is kind of overpowered, IMO).

... but a Warblade can only have 4 (or fewer) maneuvers readied until level 10. So a Warblade can gain protection against Will saves, at the cost of ~25% of his combat trick capacity. (Warblades really suffer in this department.)

It didn't seem like that to me. Maybe I just think not failing Will saves to be worth it. I know I didn't want to be blinded (by Glitterdust), or frightened, or shaken, or a zillion other conditions on the battlefield.

Master of the Nine helps greatly in Will save and in maneuvers readied, but of course it will cost you all your bonus feats...

I didn't even glance at that class, actually.

White Raven Tactics only allows a PC an additional action if the combat then ends that round. Hmm. Otherwise you just reshuffle the turn order.

I wonder if that was the thing I thought might be broken? The one with RAI vs RAW - is that the one where you might get an extra action, depending on your exact initiative? Or is that the Diplomacy DC 20 feat?

 

[Kurotowa]

An Int bonus to Reflex save sounds really good until you realise you have a +1 bonus to Int. (If that).

More than that, Battle Clarity is the capped by your Warblade level. So no matter how high your Int bonus is, a one level dip will only get you +1.

 

[Lodow MoBo]

Hi,

I haven't used any of the classes as a player but I did create a 14th level crusader justice archon (MMIV) to oppose the party in a recent adventure. While the character had access to some great maneuevers which I used in the combat, I can't help thinking he would have dealt much more damage by behaving like a fighter and just making a full attack!

I'm quite keen to try out either the crusader or warblade as my next PC.

Cheers


Richard

It's a running joke at the gaming table. Whenever someone asks what class would make the best fighter?(or something like that) the pat response:
Why a fighter makes the best fighter.

 

[Nifft]

I didn't take IHS. I did take the counter that lets me use Concentration for Will saves. That thing is amazing! It didn't bother me that I had to give up 25% of my maneuvers because it's so useful!
[ ... ]
It's like a wizard complaining that they have to give up an 8th-level spell slot to cast Moment of Prescience. If you accept it as balanced, then take it. If you think it's weak, don't take it.

I'm not exactly complaining... more like pointing out that yes, that thing is amazing, but you are paying for it in a big way (1/4 of readied maneuvers, 1/8 of total known maneuvers). And that if you don't pay it, your Will save tends to be your major weak point.

It's my opinion that the Warblade is nicely balanced (when compared to a Barbarian).

Cheers, -- N

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I'm not exactly complaining... more like pointing out that yes, that thing is amazing, but you are paying for it in a big way (1/4 of readied maneuvers, 1/8 of total known maneuvers). And that if you don't pay it, your Will save tends to be your major weak point.

It's my opinion that the Warblade is nicely balanced (when compared to a Barbarian).

Cheers, -- N

Okay, fair enough.

I'm not entirely sure what even got us on that track. I'm comparing the warblade to a fighter, not a barbarian. Fighters don't get anything that good at all (not in core, but I hear there's some PH II feat that does something like that). Concentration = Will save is a useful ability you can take if you want to; it's about as useful as any other maneuver. (At least it should be; I'm presuming it's balanced with other maneuvers.) I don't think it's weak (nor do I think maneuvers in general are weak) because you can only store four maneuvers at once, especially since the warblade can refresh at such minimal cost (and still keep stuff like Weapon Specialization). If after two rounds of combat I feel safe enough to recharge some already-used maneuvers, I'll go right ahead and do so.

Compared to a barbarian, I think the warblade comes out ahead, but not as far (as I think the barbarian is a stronger class than the fighter). They both have the same armor, hit points, and skill points, although the barbarian has a much better class skill list.

A barbarian can rage once per encounter, but it's probably for the whole encounter, and that has a lot of bonuses, like an improved Will save (or at least vs mind-affecting). The warblade can pull off a maneuver virtually every round, many of which end up being more powerful than rage.

Raging isn't that useful in ranged combat, same with the maneuvers. The barby gets a slight edge there, as they can throw hammers or something like that. On the other hand, a warblade can take Weapon Specialization at 6th-level and still use maneuvers.

 

[Nifft]

I'm comparing the warblade to a fighter, not a barbarian. Fighters don't get anything that good at all

It's my opinion that the Fighter is the weakest of the Core classes, starting around level 5 (perhaps level 3). IF you allow feats from PHB-II and Complete Warrior, they may get a bit better -- I haven't looked at PHB-II very hard.

IMHO, the Bard makes the Fighter look pathetically weak, starting around level 7. And that's sad.

especially since the warblade can refresh at such minimal cost (and still keep stuff like Weapon Specialization). If after two rounds of combat I feel safe enough to recharge some already-used maneuvers, I'll go right ahead and do so.

Weapon Specialization is VERY weak for a Warblade -- even weaker than it would be for a normal greatsword Barbarian. Why is it so weak?

1/ Weapon Spec sucks for melee combat. Power Attack + Weapon Focus do the same job much better (and you can use them at 1st level). (For an archer, Weapon Spec is great. For a TWF tumbler whose MO is to get a lot of full attacks with light weapons, it can be okay.)

2/ Weapon Spec sucks even more for a Warblade, who will most often NOT take a full attack -- he will prefer to use his Maneuvers, which tend to be single attacks. (The very notable exception to this is Time Stands Still, which actually makes Weapon Spec shine almost as brightly as it does for an archer.)

3/ Changing Stance, or using a Boost or Counter, will eat your Swift action. So, the Warblade's recovery mechanism is actually not that great -- particularly if your opponents know this fact. Basically, if you use your Will save counter, you can't do so again for 2 rounds.

Compared to a barbarian, I think the warblade comes out ahead, but not as far (as I think the barbarian is a stronger class than the fighter).

We agree about Barbarian > Fighter for sure!

The thing about a Barbarian is, his Rage is a free action. He has all these unused Swift actions lying around. If you can find some tactical feats to give you Swift things to do -- particularly ones that allow you to use your Intimidate -- I think you'll find that the Barbarian is all caught up to the Warblade. (Now, I only think this -- I can't actually back it up -- but that's what I've heard about the new stuff in the PHB-II.)

I'll do some reading in the PHB-II and the Tactical feats in Comp.War and get back to you on this, if that's okay.

A barbarian can rage once per encounter, but it's probably for the whole encounter, and that has a lot of bonuses, like an improved Will save (or at least vs mind-affecting). The warblade can pull off a maneuver virtually every round, many of which end up being more powerful than rage.

The Warblade can pull off about two rounds worth of maneuvers, then he needs to recharge. And in the round that he does his recharge, he's a Fighter with fewer feats and no heavy armor proficiency. (I figure he's got one Counter, one Boost, and two Strikes; or two Counters, two Strikes.)

Raging isn't that useful in ranged combat, same with the maneuvers.

Absolutely. Both are very melee-centric, and that's why they look so strong: being limited to melee is a weakness.

The Barbarian gets a speed boost though, so he can close the distance faster; also, Barbarians are proficient with composite longbows. (Is there a bow special ability that adjusts its "Mighty" bonus when your strength changes? If so, Barbarians may become excellent archers... )


Cheers, -- N

 

[MerricB]

Okay, fair enough.

I'm not entirely sure what even got us on that track. I'm comparing the warblade to a fighter, not a barbarian. Fighters don't get anything that good at all (not in core, but I hear there's some PH II feat that does something like that).

Don't you have PH2, (P)SH? Believe me, it totally changes how effective a fighter is at the upper levels. It's essential for any fighter.

White Raven Tactics
This stance allows you, as a swift action, to change the initiative order of one ally so they act immediately after you. It's a nice trick, but often not more than that.

It really wants you to delay until after your friend. It's quite nice when you do that.

Note that a 6th level fighter can get WRT by expending two feats (one on a WR manuever, one on WRT).

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

Quick summary of important PH2 feats for fighters:

Armour Specialisation: DR 2/-
Bounding Assault: 2 attacks with Spring Attack
Rapid Blitz: 3 attacks with Spring Attack
Brutal Strike: Daze opponent with successful melee attack with bludgeoning weapon
Defensive Sweep: If an adjacent opponent doesn't move in its turn, get an AoO vs them.
Indomitable Soul: Roll twice against fear and mind-affecting attacks
Intimidating Strike: Intimidate check with melee attack to leave foe shaken for combat.
Melee Weapon Mastery: +2 attack and damage with all of one type of weapon (S/B/P)
Ranged Weapon Mastery: As MWM and increase range by 20'
Crushing Strike: +1 on attack per previous attack with bludgeon
Driving Attack: Bull rush with piercing attack
Slashing Flurry: Gain extra attack with slashing weapon
Weapon Supremacy: wow. (+5 on one attack, +1 AC, take 10 on one attack, fight with weapon while grappled at no penalty...)
Shield Specialisation: +1 AC
Steadfast Determination: Con instead of Wis on Will saves
Vexing Flanker: +4 attacks when flanking

In my Age of Worms campaign, the 17th-level fighter has Melee Weapon Mastery and Slashing Flurry, and generally does 100+ damage per round (with 6 attacks/round).

I'll have to find his stats, they really are quite impressive.

Cheers!