Tome of Battle: Bo9S classes in actual play?

[MerricB]

You can't compare the swordsage to the fighter. The swordsage is a caster akin to the druid, not a simple melee fighter. Let's face it: the swordsage has cleric base attack, and is weak in normal melee.

Consider that the swordsage has the worst recharge ability, and you're a lot closer to a caster who can get each of their big spells off only once per combat.

Inferno Blast does 100 fire damage to all within 60 feet, reflex save for half, but your happy 20th-level sorcerer is casting a empowered delayed blast fireball for 30-180 damage every round. Quite simply, it's on par.

Feral Death Blow is nice. But this is one attack per combat. You need to make a Jump check, then make a melee attack, and then have them fail a Fort save. If you fail, an average of +70 damage. The 17th level fighter in my group is routinely doing 120+ damage a round.

Cheers!

 

[Mort]

Feral Death Blow is nice. But this is one attack per combat. You need to make a Jump check, then make a melee attack, and then have them fail a Fort save. If you fail, an average of +70 damage. The 17th level fighter in my group is routinely doing 120+ damage a round.

Cheers!

Not quite. The jump check and melee attack yes, but if they fail the fort save then they're simply dead. If they make the fort save they take an average of +70 damage.

 

[brehobit]

I think you still need prerequisite manouveres or stances, so you still need 1 manouvere / stance of level 1 or 2 before you can take any of level 3.

My reading (and others can correct me if I'm wrong) is that if you get two manouvers at once you can use one to meet the prereq of the other. So when you start with 3 manouvers and one stance at 1st level, you can get some that have prereqs.

 

[brehobit]

Losing a level of progression in Warblade is a pretty big thing. All those initiator levels take one more level to achieve.

Yeah, but if the PHB II feats _really_ make feats "all that" then it's worth it. And you get the "free" heavy armor prof. It isn't like the warblade can't wear heavy armor without huge problems (like a monk or wizard or warmage), it's just that he lacks a prof. One level of fighter also gives the ranged weapon prof which is suppose to be a major bane of the warblade

I'm just trying to work out what PC would go into Warblade to get that Moment of Perfect Mind. It isn't like Concentration is a class skill for most other classes.

Given a human fighter with an int of 12 and con of 16 (pretty reasonable) you can get a will save 1/fight at +9. As a 9th level fighter maybe has a +4 to begin with, it's pretty darn nice. As nice as Iron will? I'd say not. But many many fighters blow a valuable feat on iron will, so getting this as "one of a list of bonuses" is pretty handy.

Tactics of the Wolf only gives bonuses to you and the allies who are *also* flanking with you. Against an ogre, it might give that damage bonus to three PCs. If they can manuever into position, of course. It's not very strong.

Maybe. I find that my fighters tend to flank about half the time. Giving a +2 to damage (more as levels go up) to myself and my partner is pretty similar to weapon specialization (half the time, twice the people). Not bad. And a Fighter 10/WB1 is giving +3...

An Int bonus to Reflex save sounds really good until you realise you have a +1 bonus to Int. (If that).

Sure, but it's still half of a (fairly weak) feat. I'll take it.

White Raven Tactics only allows a PC an additional action if the combat then ends that round. Hmm. Otherwise you just reshuffle the turn order.

Not really. Say the initiative goes 12B34 where 1234 are the PCs and B is the one baddy. If you are number 2 you can move any of your buddies in front of the baddy. If that PC ends up being the one to kill the baddy he will prevent the baddy from taking one round of actions before it dies. That's huge. Of course, if you are "3" there is no one to help this significantly. Delays by others can achieve the same reordering.

Put another way, it there wasn't any real bonus, having two folks doing it (very broken) wouldn't help...

In summary,
The fighter is giving up 1/2 a feat and 4 skill points. He gains:
Give partner an extra action 1/fight (Usually)
Give self and partner +2 damage if flanking
+1 reflex save
Can have a "9" will save 1/fight
+1 hit point
A "9" consentration (should it ever be useful).

And that's just one build. There are better ones...

 

[brehobit]

You can't compare the swordsage to the fighter. The swordsage is a caster akin to the druid, not a simple melee fighter. Let's face it: the swordsage has cleric base attack, and is weak in normal melee.

Consider that the swordsage has the worst recharge ability, and you're a lot closer to a caster who can get each of their big spells off only once per combat.

A better analogy would be a cleric or monk. Swordsages tend to have a better AC than a monk (or a druid), with the same BAB and hit die. Less damage output without a maneuver, at least at higher levels, but well, you have maneuvers. Monks are underpowered, but not _that_ underpowered.

A well-built swordsage is scary powerful past level 3 or so. At level 5 things get ugly...

Mark

 

[MerricB]

One of the big troubles with most manuevers is that they don't scale well. This is definitely the case for that Fighter/Warblade you describe.

Given a human fighter with an int of 12 and con of 16 (pretty reasonable) you can get a will save 1/fight at +9. As a 9th level fighter maybe has a +4 to begin with, it's pretty darn nice. As nice as Iron will? I'd say not. But many many fighters blow a valuable feat on iron will, so getting this as "one of a list of bonuses" is pretty handy.

This is an example of not scaling well. 9th level fighter probably has a +5 will save (+2 cloak of resistance), but the 15th level fighter is up to +10 or more.

Even better than Iron Will is Steadfast Determination - Con bonus to Will saves, and don't fail Fort saves on natural 1s. (Drawback is that you need Endurance. Hmm).

A well-built swordsage is scary powerful past level 3 or so. At level 5 things get ugly...

They're definitely good. They don't challenge the fighter, of course - they have a different function.

Incidentally... another fine feat: Vexing Flanker. (+4 to attack when flanking instead of +2). Lots of fun with a greatsword and Power Attack.

Cheers!

 

[NilesB]

Not quite. The jump check and melee attack yes, but if they fail the fort save then they're simply dead. If they make the fort save they take an average of +70 damage.

That's lovely, a Cleric has had Slay Living for what, eight levels now?

And Slay Living only needs a touch attack.

 

[Nifft]

That's lovely, a Cleric has had Slay Living for what, eight levels now?

And Slay Living only needs a touch attack.

Right... but the Warblade gets to yell "DEATH FROM ABOVE!!!" (after rolling his Jump check).

That's really worth a lot, isn't it?

C, -- N

 

[Lordgrae]

I'll agree with you that the Swordsage is more like a monk. But in my Age of Worms campaign, the Swordsage has been the parties main tank, almost the entire time. His AC has never been less then grand, and he would only on average, 1hp less then a fighter.

As for Feral Death Blow, the jump check is only to see if the opponent is flat footed for the attack, and has nothing to do with the save or damage effect.

The Swordsages with Adaptive Style can get all of his maneuvers back as a single full round action. And, at higher levels, he has so many maneuvers that he doesn't really need to use it unless the combat gets dragged out.

The Swordsage also has a lot more ways to deal with things that tend to gimp Fighters. The mobility maneuvers, and some of the +save maneuvers. I don't think you should rule out the Swordsage as it compares to fighters simply because of the d8 HD and the +15 BA.

 

[Mort]

As for Feral Death Blow, the jump check is only to see if the opponent is flat footed for the attack, and has nothing to do with the save or damage effect.

If you fail the jump check you don't get the benefits of the manuever, you just get a single regular attack.