Tome of Battle - Book of 9 Swords

[MarkB]

Also: Watch out for divine surge. The normal and greater version compare strangely. My player saw that and went "WTF?" and self-nerfed it from +8d8 to +4d8 - after some play, we saw that +5d8 or +6d8 would probably be fine as well (mind you, that's on 7th level). It was still useful and good.

Cheers, LT.

My DM is a little conservative when it comes to non-core stuff, and he practically had a fit the first time I used Divine Surge. He didn't actually ask me to alter my character, but I wasn't too comfortable with that level of raw damage output myself, and voluntarily swapped it out for another manoever before the next session.

 

[MadWand]

As someone who has used the as-written form of Divine Surge, I found myself feeling that the average 36 damage it added on a strike was merely "adequate". Keep in mind that you can only get one attack in a round when using the strike -- I would often find that I was better off taking my full attack instead of using any maneuvers at all. In general, an ordinary barbarian or druid is easily able to out-damage Divine Surge. A few people at my table commented how the wizard's spells consistently out-damaged me too, due to their area of effect. Let the warriors have nice things. Divine Surge isn't a problem as written.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Divine Surge isn't a problem as written.

Bear in mind that my player self-nerfed it - he saw it and was uncomfortable with it on his own.

Furthermore, it stacks up being *very* good compared to Divine Surge, Greater (which effectively does less damage if you don't burn Con) and other manoeuvres on the same level (4th):

• Bonesplitting Strike: +2 Con damage (i.e. + HD in damage - usually)
• Death from Above: Needs Jump check, gives movement, makes target flat-footed for this attack and +4d6 damage
• Obscuring Shadow Veil: +5d6 damage and target treats everything as 50% miss chance on a failed save
• Searing Charge: Charge + 5d6 fire damage
• Ruby Nightmare Blade: Double damage on successful Concentration check.
• White Raven Strike: +4d6 damage and target is flat-footed until next turn

Considering that the crusader is already the most powerful class, due to his ability to produce vicious lose/lose-situations for enemies, I see +8d8 as very, very powerful. Note that the two most potent manoeuvres of the bunch there (obscuring shadow veil and ruby nightmare blade) are NOT available for the crusader. I mean, as a crusader, you don't want to dish out as much damage as possible, you're NOT the replacement for the barbarian - you are effectively a 15 ft. x 15 ft. area of impassibility and protection.

I see +4d8 as "average" compared to the ones above and +5d8 or +6d8 as "stacking up well".

Also: Both divine surge become more sane, if you switch the damage bonus, i.e. +6d8 for Divine Surge, +8d8 for Divine Surge, Greater.

Cheers, LT.

 

[Nifft]

Also: Both divine surge become more sane, if you switch the damage bonus, i.e. +6d8 for Divine Surge, +8d8 for Divine Surge, Greater.

I hadn't noticed this, but it looks good.

Thanks, -- N

 

[Stalker0]

I see +4d8 as "average" compared to the ones above and +5d8 or +6d8 as "stacking up well".

Also: Both divine surge become more sane, if you switch the damage bonus, i.e. +6d8 for Divine Surge, +8d8 for Divine Surge, Greater.

Cheers, LT.

Except 4d8 usually has something next to it. White Raven Strike flatfoots your opponent, searing charge lets you fly for 1 round, obscuring shadow veil nerfs your opponent's offense. Divine Surge just does damage. 4d8 by itself is just paltry.

And while greater divine surge seems wonky, remember the context of when you get it. Most parties of that level have access to the heal spell. A crusader could blow the bank with this maneuver, sacrificing 15 con for a total of 34d8 damage and a +15 to attack (two handed power attack anyone?) Then he can get fixed up by the cleric, or heck throw out the maneuver that gives him a heal spell and fix all of the damage. Greater Divine Surge is not a spam maneuver, its a fight ender.

 

[WhatGravitas]

Except 4d8 usually has something next to it. White Raven Strike flatfoots your opponent, searing charge lets you fly for 1 round, obscuring shadow veil nerfs your opponent's offense. Divine Surge just does damage. 4d8 by itself is just paltry.

Exactly - that's why I proposed making it +6d8! Then the extra effect is doing more damage (also note that the other manoeuvres use d6s, i.e. a reduction of 1 dmg on average).
Then the +5d6 manoeuvres deal ~17.5 dmg + extra effect, while +6d8 deals ~ 27 dmg, i.e. an increase of roughly 50%, which seems like a fair extra effect.

Greater Divine Surge is not a spam maneuver, its a fight ender.

True, but note that it's a crusader manoeuvre - you get it at random. If it deals a bit more damage (+8d8), you can actually use it mid-combat, not only as finishing blow. And if you're going to make the big finishing blow, burning half your Con, the increase of 2d8 doesn't matter that much any longer. A manoeuvre you get randomly shouldn't require you to have a cleric ready for healing, just to make it sensible to use the manoeuvre at all (because otherwise, the other strikes are plain better, if you do not intend to sacrifice your Con).

Cheers, LT.

 

[Zelc]

I can't believe you're all so concerned about 2d8 or 4d8 damage on a single one-target attack .

Possibly wonky things, and changing as little as possible to fix them below.

White Raven Tactics: Can be wonky when used on yourself. Just make it so you can't target yourself, and if need be, it can't be used on the same person 2 rounds in a row.

Iron Heart Surge: You need to clearly define what types of effects it can and can't remove. I recommend leaving it as an auto-success, even though the ability to remove a high level effect automatically may seem troubling.

Stormguard Warrior: Can be used to rack up a ton of damage if the enemy can't move. I doubt it needs nerfing.

Thicket of Blades: Combos well with reach weapons and Stand Still or Improved Trip to make enemies not move. I don't think this is broken, just very effective.

 

[Fenes]

Good advice, thanks!

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Warmaster's Charge (WR 9) is a confusing one, unless I'm missing something. You could potentially have dozens of allies, all charging a single creature, without getting in each other's way, ending their charges....where? And I'm not sure, but the text seems to say all allies charge a single target, whilst I get the impression the intention was to allow them to charge multiple foes. It's a level 9 maneuver, so it likely will never be an issue (like in my case), but just saying.

 

[Nail]

FWIW:

We've used the ToB:Bo9S for about a year now. Mostly, it's fine. ...And it's great fun!

That said:

• Multiclassing can be a problem, as picking up a level of martial adept later is more beneficial as one earlier.
• The manuevers like Moment of Perfect Mind can be abused, if the player realizes he's only got to have 1 good stat: Con. I nerfed it to a straight +6 bonus.
• Some of the Tiger Claw manuevers can have stupid high DCs based on damage done.