[Tome of Battle] New Maneuvers

[mythSSK]

I've been sorting through a couple of threads on this subject from a couple of different forums recently, and have starting trying to compile a bunch of maneuvers made by different people into a useable format for my home games. Many of the maneuvers are badly written (or written in a way that doesn't mesh with the standard format), badly thought out, or just don't fit the discipline that they've been assigned. I've cut out a few of the worst offenders, but anything I thought might be salvageable I've included in the first draft. I did a brief rewording of some of the more brain-breaking ones, as well.

This is where I apply to you for help. At the moment, I have 110+ new maneuvers spread over the 9 disciplines (I also have a heap of homebrewed disciplines I want to eventually look at, but the scope of that project is much vaster so I'm concentrating on the maneuvers belonging to the normal 9 disciplines for now). That's a lot of maneuvers, and I could use some help going over them, rewriting them, and balancing them (a lot of them don't have flavor text, either). If you're up for it, please give me a hand! I'm also interested in any other new maneuvers people would like to contribute to this endeavor (or links to threads with some that it looks like I've missed).

I have posted companion threads to this one on a couple of other forums that I frequent, and will be working with everyone to make these maneuvers presentable -- hopefully at the end of it I will have a well-balanced, nicely edited document I can give to everyone as a fanmade expansion to Tome of Battle.

Here are my preliminary documents:

Desert Wind
Devoted Spirit
Diamond Mind
Iron Heart
Setting Sun
Shadow Hand
Stone Dragon
Tiger Claw
White Raven

Credit for the prior creation of these maneuvers goes to the following people: The Demented One, Obsidianjaerc, Razz, Yue Ryong, JiCi, KnH, aelryinth, BrazilRascal, Tempest Stormwind, Crashy75, Neofish, Riplox, AllisterH, and the countless others that contributed to the threads that these maneuvers were presented on (I'll put a more complete credits page in the finalised document once it's done). I take no credit for the creation of these maneuvers.

 

[Matrixryu]

Sorry, I've never looked at the Tome of Battle, otherwise I would try and help.

 

[gamecat]

Well, here goes. I'll do desert wind first.

A Thousand Birds
Seems fine.

Crescent Flame
Seems a bit situational, given that it only punks those who flank you, but the single attack roll and fire damage on successful touch offset this fact. Fine the way it is.

Dancing Flame
I don't know if desert wind compares to arcane spells and diamond mind maneuvers very well, but attaching daze to a sapphire nightmare blade doesn't add up to a 5th level maneuver. I'd ratchet this guy down to 4th at the bare minimum.

Dance of Unquenchable Flames
There's a 3rd level Sor/Wiz spell in PHB2 that makes something vulnerable to an energy type and so on, for so many rounds. 5th level maneuver sounds fine.

Flowing Flame
Fine by me. Fits the flavor of Desert Wind well.

Glaring Blade
Blindness/deafness is Sor/Wiz 2, and this seems better than burning blade. Off to level 2 with him. Add a teensy bit more damage if you disagree with me on this one and keep it at two.

Illumination of Vigilance
Fair enough. Counters are cool.

Internal Combustion
Maybe a bit low? Off the top of my head, this guy isn't as cool as Iron Heart Surge. Cool ability at any level though. Swordsages can't have enough boosts.

Nova Guillotine
Compare this guy with Strength Draining Strike. I don't have my Tome of Battle with me, but they should be comparable maneuvers.

Phoenix Feather Healing
Include a caveat against gaming it for free hit points, similar to the Crusader's Strike line of manuevers? Unlimited healing hasn't been realized anywhere else.

Razor Walk
Great manuever - plays well with the Scorching Scirocco feat.

Rising Heat Tower
I like this one too - it feels very M. Bison "psycho crusher".

Rising Steam Flip
Perfectly fine by me. Similar to Dragon's Leap from tiger claw.

Striking Sidewinder Stance
I like it. You want to encourage desert wind swordsages to be as agile as possible.

Supernova Guillotine
Again, contrast this guy with Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike.

Wind Howl
Powerful, but an eighth level maneuver. I'd let it fly. Or howl, in this case.

Zephyr's Stride
Isn't there a Desert Wind stance that improves speed already? Make sure he's lower level than this guy.

Not bad, all in all. Perhaps I'll test these on the game I play. I'll review another discipline later.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Pretty cool, overall. I looked at all of them for a bit, and every discipline seems to have some I'd call underpowered and overpowered, and a few could use clarifications.

I'll actually start with White Raven for comments, since it has the maneuver that I think needs the most changes / I have the most to say about.


In general: I was hoping for at least a few more WR maneuvers that would be of decent benefit to a lone character. Mostly as a DM, I like to have bad guys focused in WR, but find it annoying that they always have to have fairly tough allies with them to not become largely useless. I know WR is about teamwork, but there are at least a few things in there that aren't related to that (WR Hammer, for ex.) and some things that are good enough on the character alone, even if he has no allies to use it as well (leading the charge stance, for ex.). I like that you added some use of the key skill, it'd be nice if you did that for ALL the disciplines that as written have no use for the key skill.

Adrenaline Surge: Mostly good, see no real reason why to exclude the initiator, but whatever. You should specify that those affected are immune to becoming fatigued or exhausted for the duration, which was my impression on reading it. Or otherwise clarify what happens in that situation.

Call to Arms: Cool. Maybe even a little powerful for its level. This doesn't ruin feinting and other things beyond surprise or being given the flatfooted condition from other maneuvers, etc..., right?

Call to Glory: Oh boy...
I really, really like this idea. But you made it entirely too complicated and restrictive to the point of being prohibitive to ever learn/ready. Range should just say 30 ft instead of see text. Area should be changed to effect or target and/or say all allies within 30 ft, or "all allies within 30 ft when initiated" if they can move beyond that range after you use it.The one round initiation time,the fact it can be interrupted, the fact you need to maintain concentration on it or else it ends, and the fact the other maneuver has to be another one you have readied/granted is already limiting enough, IMO.
I think you should change the concentration check to a diplomacy check. It's a maneuver, at worst it's a Su ability, still not spell-like. And Crusaders don't even get concentration as a class skill! You've made this maneuver useless to them! It doesn't have to be jarring. Just explain that it's difficult to recite the correct words while you're getting pummeled or whatever, to justify using diplomacy for DCs when struck. Bards can take a feat to use perform to retain concentration spells, not much more of a leap...
I don't think it's so potent as to warrant an xp cost like making a script. It's already fairly limited and contained in use as you set it up. And by the time you're level 15+, a level 1-3 maneuver shouldn't be that big of a deal. Limit it to one ally per initiator level, 1 / 2 IL, lessen the radius, or bump it to level 9 if you're really worried. On the same note, why the special rules about not re-readying it? They're just so awkward and unnecessary. Obviously if you cease taking standard actions, anyone who hasn't used it loses it. I don't see a problem with refreshing maneuvers and using it again. You're a high level character using up most of his actions for the length of the combat just to give everyone else a weak maneuver to use...not a big deal.


Charge Through the Crowd: Seems really weak and situational for a stance. Might work better as a boost. Alternatively, add in some other nice things, like being able to make a single turn of up to 90 degrees during a charge (there's a feat and skill trick to do this already, doesn't seem unbalanced to include in the stance).

General's Aid: If it weren't for the tiny radius, I'd be worried it's too strong at character level 3 compared to inspire courage. As it is, should be fine.

Inspiring Stature: I think this should be a higher level stance, maybe 5th level. Group fear immunity alone is insane at ECL 5, the awesome diplomacy for will saves thing (which I like!) puts it even more over the top. It might even be worthwhile as a level 8 stance, but I don't think it needs to be that high.

Rally the Legion: I have no idea about this one. The half cha duration is kinda wonky, and you're potentially getting a lot out of only a level 2 maneuver. I think this should be an untyped kind of maneuver instead of a boost. Not all maneuvers are strikes, boosts, counters, or stances.

Taken Under the Wind: Good. Only "issue" is it doesn't seem that useful to a PC, but for a low level NPC general fighting in mass combat, not bad potentially.

White Raven Retribution: No comment, good as written.


WR could use a few more mid-level maneuvers other than the stances. There was a level 6 and a level 8 maneuver. The rest were all level 1 or 2, or were a stance.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Tiger Claw!

Avian Wind Dance: Seems rather similar to leaping dragon stance, unless they actually meant that LDS adds 10 FEET to your jump, and not +10 to the check...

Bloody Tidings: Seems fine.

Deadly Leviathan Stance: I think it's too good for a level 3 stance, even if the benefits are rather dull.

Dragon Fang Stance: You could just make it identical to Draconic Prescense if you want and have it based on HD and cha. Or leave it like this, either way works.

Evasive Leap: I like it. Name's kinda misleading, you leap after someone misses you; the leap has nothing to do with evading an attack.

Feral Crush: Seems like more of a Stone Dragon thing, otherwise fine.

Frenzied Badger Flurry: Limit it to up to 2 weapons, like the "core" Tiger Claw maneuvers. Might be better at level 6, comparing it to IH's Mithral Tornado (level 4, 1 attack on all adjacent foes, +2 to hit) and Adamantine Hurricane (level 8, 2 attacks on adjacent foes, +4 to hit iirc).

Grinning Wolf Glare: The duration makes it too good for level 1, increase it (also helps the save DC). Change range to melee. Specify in the text that you add 1 to the save DC for successful attacks you've made against that creature in the round, if that was the intent.

Hydra's Metabolism: Fine.

Lion's Pride Takedown: Seems like it should be named after wolves, since you're basically mimicking their attack. Maybe make it level 2, to match IH's Disarming Strike. Trip is at least as good as disarm overall.

Roar of the Maned King: Might actually be al ittle strong for level 2, considering the blindness/deafness spell is level 2 and is single target, range: touch.

Savage Tidings: Seriously, why so many stances? Mechanicly, it's fine. Just wow...is that 6 stances now?

Talons of Light and Shadow: Just a really awkward maneuver and rather impractical to toss melee weapons away like that. I don't like it at all.

 

[gamecat]

...
Rally the Legion: I have no idea about this one. The half cha duration is kinda wonky, and you're potentially getting a lot out of only a level 2 maneuver. I think this should be an untyped kind of maneuver instead of a boost. Not all maneuvers are strikes, boosts, counters, or stances.
...

Having just made a White Raven Warblade, charisma is never mentionied in any of the official White Raven maneuvers.

 

[mythSSK]

Thanks for the swift responses, guys! This level of feedback is beyond what I've gotten on any of the companion threads. Guess this means EnWorld should be my go-to forum from now on

---

@Gamecat - Thanks for your contributions! Let's see what I have to respond to (if I don't say anything about a maneuver, then I pretty much just agree with you)...

RE: Dance of Unquenchable Flames - In one of the companion threads to this, someone else has stated that while they like it, they believe it's a bit powerful and have recommended a change. I will raise the existence of the spell you mention and continue the discussion.

RE: Glaring Blade - I think it's a bit weak to raise to level 2... The blindness only lasts one round. Compare to both Burning Blade and Blistering Flourish. BB has higher damage (1d6+level) and is a boost that lasts until end of turn, rather than a single attack. BF does no damage, and only dazzles opposed to blinding, but for a much longer duration (GB's blind is only for a single round) and affects an area. I tend towards thinking it's about right where it is when balanced against those two other Desert Wind maneuvers.

RE: Nova Guillotine - Looking at it side-by-side with Strength Draining Strike... SDS does no additional damage (compared to the Guillotine's extra 5d6), and does a set 4 Str damage (as opposed to 1d4 Int). Is Strength damage worth more than Int damage? The extra damage for the Guillotine seems a bit much, actually. I dunno.

RE: Phoenix Feather Healing - What do you think of this caveat, reworded from Crusader's Strike? "This damage must originate from a foe that poses a threat to you in some direct, immediate way."

RE: Supernova Guillotine - Looking at it side-by-side with Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike... FSCIES does less damage, you have less control over what type of ability damage you're doing, and has a chance to have an additional special effect on top of the damage and ability damage on a failed save (up to 2d6 damage to each (!) physical stat on a failed save!). Next to that, the Guillotine looks a bit underpowered, actually.

RE: Zephyr's Stride - Wind Stride is a 1st level boost that grants +10 ft. to speed. I don't see a stance that does.

---

@StreamofTheSky - I'm glad someone decided to start with a discipline that isn't Desert Wind! Let's see... I'll note again that I didn't actually write any of these maneuvers, so I absolve myself on any responsibility of them being badly written. I do agree that the disciplines could use more dependence on their key skills.

RE: Adrenaline Surge - This (and the two other Language-dependant maneuvers) were designed by Tempest Stormwind for his variant Marshal class. I'd imagine it doesn't include the initiator because it's based loosely on the Marshal's auras. Good call on it needing a clarification re: fatigue.

RE: Call to Arms - I don't know, does it? My reading of it implies it ends ALL flatfooted conditions. Feinting doesn't cause a target to become flatfooted, though, it denies their Dex bonus, so feinting is unaffected.

RE: Call to Glory - Again, this wasn't designed by me. I need to take a good hard look at this one a little later on, and I'll definitely be taking your advice into account. Thanks heaps for the detailed look.

RE: Charge Through the Crowd - I agree, it does seem pretty weak. I like the idea of adding a few other bonus things to it, rather than changing it to a boost.

RE: Inspiring Stature - Wooah, agreed. Definitely needs a boost in level.

RE: Rally the Legion - I like the imagery this maneuver inspires. Agree about the untyped-ness. I think a +1 increase to level should be sufficient to fix it. I would like to figure out a way to reword it so it's not so verbose, though.

With regards to White Raven needing more other stuff... have you got any suggestions? If you want them to have some more, feel free to make some yourself and post them here as a contribution!

---

I'll respond to your Tiger Claw comments in a little bit. Need to rest my brain.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

yeah, brain rest is why I haven't started on more yet. And I'm aware you didn't actually write most or any of these, but it's just easier to reference to "you" rather than the original authors who may or may not ever even see my posts. Do understand I know you aren't "guilty" of anything, I'm just lazy and write my posts addressed to you for simplicity.

EDIT: As to the speed boost question, Absolute Steel, a level 3 IH stance, is the only stance to give a speed boost. +10 ft enhancement, so it won't stack with boots of S&S, and it also gives a +2 dodge AC bonus every round you move 10 or more feet, for comparison.

 

[gamecat]

Thanks for the swift responses, guys! This level of feedback is beyond what I've gotten on any of the companion threads. Guess this means EnWorld should be my go-to forum from now on

---

@Gamecat - Thanks for your contributions! Let's see what I have to respond to (if I don't say anything about a maneuver, then I pretty much just agree with you)...

Indeed! I love Bo9S - it's made being a sword guy as fun as being a magic guy.

RE: Dance of Unquenchable Flames - In one of the companion threads to this, someone else has stated that while they like it, they believe it's a bit powerful and have recommended a change. I will raise the existence of the spell you mention and continue the discussion.

RE: Glaring Blade - I think it's a bit weak to raise to level 2... The blindness only lasts one round. Compare to both Burning Blade and Blistering Flourish. BB has higher damage (1d6+level) and is a boost that lasts until end of turn, rather than a single attack. BF does no damage, and only dazzles opposed to blinding, but for a much longer duration (GB's blind is only for a single round) and affects an area. I tend towards thinking it's about right where it is when balanced against those two other Desert Wind maneuvers.

I didn't even think of blistering flourish. Being one round, that's a counterpoint, but consider that 1 extra fire damage is nigh negible later on and blindness is far worse a condition than being dazzled (rogues can sneak attack blind guys and whatnot, blindness means you have to guess where an opponent is, and so forth).

RE: Nova Guillotine - Looking at it side-by-side with Strength Draining Strike... SDS does no additional damage (compared to the Guillotine's extra 5d6), and does a set 4 Str damage (as opposed to 1d4 Int). Is Strength damage worth more than Int damage? The extra damage for the Guillotine seems a bit much, actually. I dunno.

I think ability damage is all the same, with the sole exception that Constitution is far deadlier. As to that, consider that Fan the Flames does 6d6 w/ a ranged touch attack and Shadow Garrote, another 3rd level Shadow Hand Manuever, deals 5d6 as well, making the target flat-footed w/ a failed save. Maybe the Guillotine should be toned down.

RE: Phoenix Feather Healing - What do you think of this caveat, reworded from Crusader's Strike? "This damage must originate from a foe that poses a threat to you in some direct, immediate way."

Perfect.

RE: Supernova Guillotine - Looking at it side-by-side with Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike... FSCIES does less damage, you have less control over what type of ability damage you're doing, and has a chance to have an additional special effect on top of the damage and ability damage on a failed save (up to 2d6 damage to each (!) physical stat on a failed save!). Next to that, the Guillotine looks a bit underpowered, actually.

I referenced Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike (so much fun to type) as it's a good example. Perhaps we should turn up the heat on intelligence damage?

RE: Zephyr's Stride - Wind Stride is a 1st level boost that grants +10 ft. to speed. I don't see a stance that does.

Hm. My home machine isn't rendering your PDF very well - I can't make it out. Perhaps Zephyr's Stride fits in at 3rd?

 

[mythSSK]

Okay, that's the second complaint I've gotten about the PDFs not rendering correctly. They look fine on both my home and work machines, so I have no idea what the problem is or what to do about it. Have you got the latest Adobe reader? I will have a fiddle with things and see if I can fix it, but I can't give any guarantees (seeing as I can't even check to see if I fix the problem with anything I do).

---

StreamOfTheSky - TIGER CLAW!

RE: Avian Wind Dance - Yeah, you're right, it does look a lot like Leaping Dragon Stance. Hm.

RE: Deadly Leviathan Stance - I agree with the fact that it is a bit strong, waterbreathing is a bit much for a level 3 maneuver, but I actually question its presence in Tiger Claw at all. I might scrap it entirely (especially seeing as when I look at the new disciplines I've got saved for the new step of this project, I can see four different ocean/water/aquatic themed ones).

RE: Evasive Leap - Have you got a suggestion for a better name?

RE: Feral Crush - We don't need to keep this maneuvers where they are -- if you think it needs to be moved to Stone Dragon, that is definitely up for consideration.

RE: Frenzied Badger Flurry - Good call. Agreed.

RE: Grinning Wolf Glare - All your changes seem good.

RE: Hydra's Metabolism - Just so you know, I actually already altered this one from the original, which didn't have the "less than half your hit points remaining" clause, which I thought made it a bit broken.

AS AN ASIDE: I just tried to copy/paste out of the PDF and got weird gibberish instead of the text I highlighted "[FONT=T3Font_0]YHDQG\RXOHVVWKDQ[/FONT]" is this similar to the problem everyone else is getting?

RE: Lion's Pride Takedown - A rename might indeed be in order. Agreed about the level change -- got a name suggestion?

RE: Roar of the Maned King - Yeah, but the only reason blindness/deafness is level 2 is because of the blindness part. Deafness is pretty situational, and mostly doesn't do heaps. Best thing it's good for is giving a spell failure chance. What if we drop the duration down a bit? 1 minute?

RE: Savage Tidings - Heh, yeah, lots of stances. People just must like to make Tiger Claw stances, I guess! Like I said before, I'm taking new submissions for maneuvers as well, so if you feel like making some up (along with some White Raven ones ) go for it!

RE: Talons of Light and Shadow - Yeah, I think you're right. I might scrap it entirely unless someone can give me a reason not to.

---

gamecat!

Good point. I really need to work out how to fix Rally the Legion... like I said, I love the idea behind this maneuver (Okay, I have no idea how to fix this link -- everytime I fix it it embeds the video instead of just being a link! Just copy/paste and edit it), so I don't want to just ditch it. It definitely needs a rewrite, though.

RE: Glaring Blade... argh. I dunno. It seems too weak to bump up a level, but possibly too strong for level 1. If I up the damage to 2d6 do you think that makes it a solid level 2 maneuver?

RE: Nova Guillotine - I just noticed that many maneuvers tend to do set amounts of ability damage rather than variable amounts. Should the amount of Int damage dealt by this be fixed? I think Int damage has less occasions where it will have an immediate benefit, unlike Str (not saying it's too situational), so keeping a little extra damage might be okay, but I'd drop it down to 2d6 at the absolute most.

RE: Supernova Guillotine - I'm leery of dealing more Int damage, because the higher that gets, the more likely you are to drop a foe in a single hit by rendering him catatonic. Five Shadow Creeping Ice Enervation Strike (it IS fun to type!) spreads its damage out -- it'd be quite a bit stronger if it did 6d6 damage to a single ability score instead of 2d6 to three! I'm not sure how to balance it out. What if we either A) add in 2d6 damage to a second mental ability score; or B) drop the damage down to being comparable to FSCIES and do 2d6 damage to all three mental ability scores? I like B, balanced by the fact that it deals half damage as well as half ability damage on a successful save. I would also bump its prereq's up to 5 (like FSCIES).

RE: Zephyr's Strike -- as StreamofTheSky pointed out, it is actually a fair bit stronger than Absolute Steel, which is a level 3 IH stance. It actually kind of just looks like an upgraded version of it, which makes me question it being in DW and not IH.

---

Okay, brain hurting from staring at maneuvers too long again. Thanks for all the help so far, guys. Keep it coming