Too hard or too soft?

[Dragonnety]

Lately in my campaign, my players are against a white dragon. After a few battles with an endless gnoll army and the siege of a mountain city, they found the dragon on top of a castle. The dragon stats are shown below. What CR do you think it is? (I used Draconomicon, Complete Arcane, Player's Handbook and some specials from another white dragon I found)

[FONT=&quot]Levabrass the Icing Death, Mature Adult White Dragon[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Sorcerer 7;
CE Female Mature Adult Huge White Dragon (cold)
HD: 21d12 + 135 + 7d4 (HP 295)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Senses[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Listen +25, Spot +11; Blindsense 60 ft.; Darkvision 120 ft.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Init: +0, Speed: 60 ft , burrow 30 ft, fly 200 ft (poor), swim 60 ft[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Aura[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Frightful Presence (DC 21)
Languages Draconic, Common[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
AC: 32 (-2 Size, +20 natural, +4 Mage Armor)
BAB: +24/Grap +40; [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Space[/FONT][FONT=&quot] 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Melee: bite +31 (2d8 +8), claws +26/+26 (1d8 + 4), wings +26/+26 (1d8 +4), tail slap +26 (2d6 +13)
Saves: Fort +19 Ref +14 Will +18
Abilities: Str 27 Dex 10 Con 21 Int 12 Wis 13 Cha 19[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]SQ[/FONT][FONT=&quot] low-light vision, Icewalking[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Skills Concentration +20, Diplomacy +16, Hide+15 , Intimidate +16, Knowledge (Arcana) +10, Move Silently +24, Search +25, Sense Motive +6, Spellcraft +10, Swim +14, Use Magic Device +6[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Immune[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Cold, Magical sleep and paralysis effects; SR 24[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Spell-like Abilities[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (CL 7): 3/day–gust of wind; 1/day–fog cloud. [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Caster level [/FONT][FONT=&quot]14[/FONT][FONT=&quot]th; save DC 1[/FONT][FONT=&quot]4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]+spell level.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Weakness[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Fire (+25%)[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Feats:[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ability Focus (Breath Weapon), Cleave, Clinging Breath, Great Cleave, energy Substitution (Ice), Power Attack, Recover Breath, Shock Wave, Suppress Weakness[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sorceror Spells: ([/FONT][FONT=&quot]Known 7/5/3/2) (Per Day 6/7/7/5) DC 14 + spell level[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
0: Arcane Mark, Dancing Lights, Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Open Close, Ray of Frost (1d3 cold), Read Magic
1: Burning Hands (5d4 cold)), Chill Touch (1d6 negative + 1 Str), Mage Armor, Shield, Shocking grasp (5d6 cold)
2: Flaming Sphere (2d6 cold), Resist Energy, Scorching Ray (2 rays 4d6 cold)
3: Fireball (7d6 cold), Lightning bolt (7d6 cold)

[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Breath Weapon (Su):[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Cone of Cold (50'), dealing 7d6 cold damage (DC 25 Reflex save for half). Once used, it cannot breathe again until 1d4-1 (-1 due to Recover Breath feat; can't ever be less than 1 round wait, though) rounds later. A blast from a breath weapon always starts at any intersection adjacent to the dragon and extends in a direction of the dragon's choice. With Clinging Breath (+1 to recover), the breath weapon sticks to the targets and does half the damage it did to them originally the next round. [/FONT]
Crush (Ex): A flying or jumping dragon of at least Huge size can land on opponents as a standard action, using its whole body (15'×15') to crush them. Small or smaller opponents take 2d8+15 bludgeoning damage and need to succeed at a DC 25 Reflex save or be pinned (take bludgeoning damage again next round); grapple bonus +41.
Shock Wave (Ex): You may, as a full-round action, strike a solid surface with your tail and create a shock wave that radiates out from your space and continues for a number of feet equal to 5 × your racial hit dice (21 squares). Make a bull rush attack by rolling once regardless of how many creatures are in the radius. Every creature in the radius makes a Strength check and compares it to your roll. Those who fail their opposed checks are knocked down. Building and unattended objects at least partially within the shockwave take damage equal to 1d6 + your strength bonus (+8).
Frightful Presence (Ex): An adult dragon can unsettle foes with its mere presence. The ability takes effect automatically whenever the dragon attacks, charges, or flies overhead. 240' radius, 23 HD or less, Will save DC 21 negates. Affected creatures are panicked (<4 HD), or shaken (5+ HD) for 4d6 rounds. Dragons are immune to the effects of the Frightful Presence for other Dragons.
Freezing Fog (Sp): An old or older white dragon can use this ability three times per day. It is similar to a solid fog spell (20' radius of fog from point within 200', abscures all sight beyond 5' and grants cover, drops everyone's move speed to 5 ft./round, lasts for 5 min.), but also causes a rime of slippery ice to form on any surface the fog touches, creating the effect of a grease spell (DC 16 Reflex or fall when cast, DC 10 Balance check to move half-speed through area). The dragon is immune to the grease effect because of its icewalking ability. This ability is the equivalent of a 5th-level spell.
Icewalking (Su): This ability works like the spider climb spell, but the surfaces the dragon climbs must be icy. It is always in effect.



PS - The party : Human Cleric 13 of Pelor, Drow Ninja 8 / Shadowdancer 3,
Half-elf Swashbuckler 8 / Bard 5, Moon Elf Ranger 13

 

[Creamsteak]

Since you've substituted cold on most of its spells, I don't think that the sorcerer levels add all that much to its power. If the cleric casts his best available elemental resistance against cold on the party (very likely I would think) it's not going to be able to use all those extra damage effects you've given it with its spell selection. So with that in mind, it's not going to be incredibly more difficult than any other Mature Adult White Dragon.

Mage Armor, Shield, and Resist Energy are its best spells there, and they are all going to be limited to a lower caster level anyway, so easily dispelled even with the spell resistance. It might last a few rounds though.

The draconomicon feats do give it a reasonable boost, so it's a little tougher there. That might be a wash though if the party has optimized themselves to some degree.

By the book, I think the CR is supposed to be the base CR of the creature +7. In this case, I think that would error too high. Maybe closer to base CR +3? He's tougher, but in an easily (and obvious to the eyes) way.

 

[Runestar]

Your stats seem a little erroneous. It should have 140hp from its con (28HD*5), mature adult white has innate sorc3 casting, which would stack with 7 lvs of sorc for a final effective spellcasting lv of 10.

That said, your spells don't really do much to improve the combat capabilities of a dragon, since they don't seem much better than a full attack. 7 lvs of sorc give just +3bab, roughly equivalent to 3racial HD, or the next age category (cr15). Your stats also seem a little low, you should be able to use the elite stat array, but only your cha is higher.

So I think its cr is around 15. You can bump that cr up to 16 if you decide to optimize its spell selection to better complement its combat capabilities (more emphasis on pre-combat buffs and swift-casting time spells).

You are also missing a feat for its 27th HD. I recommend practiced spellcaster. Swap out great cleave for multiattack (and squeeze in improved multiattack if possible).

On a side note, I am surprised there are still people bothering with sorc lvs. I though abjurant champion was the standard these days...

Since you've substituted cold on most of its spells, I don't think that the sorcerer levels add all that much to its power. If the cleric casts his best available elemental resistance against cold on the party (very likely I would think) it's not going to be able to use all those extra damage effects you've given it with its spell selection.

Not really. Being a metamagic spell, the OP has the benefit of deciding whether to cast a fireball as a fire spell, or spend a full round changing it to deal cold damage (it is the elemental savant prc which automatically converts all your elemental damage spells to the chosen element). But you are right in that cold seems a poor choice, given that the PCs are likely to have some means of protection against it. It makes more sense to choose cold damage spells, then have energy sub: fire (since creatures resistant/immune to cold are usually not resistant/immune to fire).

 

[milo]

I would agree with some of the above posts. I would drop the energy subs for ice, your breath weapon is better than most of the spells you could cast(no SR and higher save DC), and they will have resist energy up for cold anyways. Multiattack is a must have feat for a dragon, and 5 levels of Abjurant Champion w/ practiced spellcaster is better than the 7 levels of sorcerer. You get full BAB, some extended spells and swift action spells(shield is amazing w/abjurant champ 5, swift action, extended, for +9 ac). Maybe even pick up Arcane Strike from complete warrior. Drop a 4th level spell to get+4 attack and 4D4 damage every hit.

 

[pawsplay]

I'll say the Sorcerer levels are potentially worth +7 CR. The offensive spells are a parlour trick, since the breath weapon is going to be better. However, mage armor, shield, and resist energy can substantially improve it's game. It also benefits from a higher Will and some higher skills. To get the full +7, it should have gear equivalent to a 7th level sorcerer. Without the gear, I'd say an ad hoc -1 CR.

That spell list is terrible. Not only do you not need two attack spells at each spell level, for a sorcerer I usually only have one direct damage spell every two spell levels, since you can always burn higher level slots as needed. For a monster encountered alone or at least as the most powerful opponent, I'd assign an ad hoc -1 CR for using sorcerer levels more for flavor than for a useful spell selection.

Great Cleave is unlikely to come into play, but how about Eschew Materials?

If you really want to go with the cold theme, I'd replace as many sorcerer levels as possible with a PrC like Elemental Savant, Bonded Summoner, or the elemental class from Draconomicon.

 

[Runestar]

I don't think 7 sorc lvs give +7 cr. You are essentially hinting that a mature adult white dragon sorc7 is roughly equivalent to a wyrm white dragon. That is clearly not true - the wyrm outclasses the former in every way, even spellcasting. Likewise, buff spells such as mage armour only make up for the loss of AC due to fewer dragon HD at best.

The slots however, can be useful for fueling arcane strike.

Alternatively, you can give it warblade or swordsage lvs. The dragon is not able to properly take advantage of the action economy in 3e, and the boosts/counters from tome of battle can help remedy that (not least being that it allows the dragon to be able to move and still make a full attack consistently).

Or if you don't wish to bother with spellcasting, you can use the xorvintaal template in MM5, which streamlines the dragon and makes it easier to play.

 

[dingle]

I would say CR14. 10 for the dragon HD and +4 for the sorcerer levels (as they do not improve the dragon that much).

 

[concerro]

The CR the sorcerer levels add to the dragon are going to depend on the spells you select. It could potentially be 7 or only 3 more CR to the dragon.

 

[Darklone]

Check out the relevant MM section, class levels only add half to the CR for the first few levels... I concur with the +3CR.

 

[Dragonnety]

A great thanks to all of you for your ideas and hints. I had classified poor Levanbrass CR 14 as well, but you can never be sure with these things. Thanks again to all of you.
However this dragon was supposed to be "Icing Death", so I had to justify that with energy substitution feat. Also it was supposed to have some limited magic power. It is not strong but it fills the criteria.
As aftermath I would like to announce that poor Levanbrass died after a failed fortitude check to a Destruction spell with DC 23 (I rolled 2 and a friend bystander started laughing his head out. I couldn't cheat )