Too much, too little

[ColonelHardisson]

Disposable supplements could be a decent compromise. A module, for example, is degradable: you use it on your players and shelve it. Then you buy another and another. With rules, setting material and similar supplements, consumers are left with a feeling of "bloat" because all that material builds up.

OK, but at some point don't those customers have to bear some responsibility for their buying habits? If at some point one looks up and sees that one has more material than one needs, shouldn't one simply start being more prudent about what one buys? That's what I did, and I'm sure others have also. With a game like 3e, which is designed so that all one needs is the core books, one can be very choosy about what one buys. Complaining about rules bloat seems like an attempt to absolve oneself of any responsibility for one's compulsive spending habits. Especially now with the internet and almost instant reviews of new books, one can easily pick and choose what one buys based on what directly appeals to individual taste. Being so judicious in what one buys would make rules bloat look a lot more like a sea of choice.

 

[WayneLigon]

What the hell is wrong with this customer base?

I just assume they're insane.

 

[philreed]

Nothing's wrong, every industry gets "consumer commentary". What's amazing is the extent to which this industry actually LISTENS to its customers. Look at these boards, if you post a complaint or compliment about a product, the actual writer or publisher will probably respond. Ever try that with Pepsi? Go ahead, move on over to the Pepsi boards and post "Why do we get so many $^%& new flavors every month" and see how much of an impact you make. Clamor for more adventures on the WotC boards and look what happens...

I think it primarily has to do with company size. I mean, I frequently get "Wow! You personally responded to my e-mail!" and "I thought your secretary would talk to me." e-mails.

I then look around. Shake my head. Look around again. And smile.

Secretary? I wish!

It's just me here, people. And my office is in my house.

EDIT: And I am definitely not unique. A lot of publishers are small operations without a central office.

 

[Psion]

Since the days of RGFD, I have found it baffling that anyone would have reason to be irritated by the existance of optional books (does the term "jarosian" mean anything to anyone here?)

The hobby is a huge and varied landscape. I find accusations of bloat baffling because no one person could even dream of using all that stuff; that's not the point. The point is that the variety being offered is such that there is a good chance that somewhere out there you can find a book to scratch your particular itch.

And that's a good thing.

You aren't supposed to get them all. This is not Pokemon!

 

[Breakdaddy]

Who said anything about 3e? I thought Quasqueton was talking game companies in general. Otherwise, this thread would be an open invitation to start an edition war

Considering the original poster, I would say it's a very good guess that his argument has its basis in 3.xe D&D.

 

[JoeGKushner]

You aren't supposed to get them all. This is not Pokemon!

Apparently you haven't seen the designs for 4th ed yet.

"Now with random collectible rules!"

"Greatsword, I choose you!"

 

[Henry]

Quasqueton, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's talking only about 3E (though that's what I hear personally more than anything on various message boards). Many times when someone is saying, "it's too much junk coming out too quickly!" They're really saying, "there's too much junk coming out that I'll never use!" and assume that their experiences are shared by the whole of the fanbase; in order to make themselves heard, they'll hue and cry louder than anyone actually satisfied with all the releases.

There's nothing wrong with someone expressing displeasure with the market situation, as long as they fully accept that theirs is not the only situation being looked at, and the companies aren't trying to satisfy only them. It's like another poster in another thread who declared that his games used TONS of supplements, and games who didn't were boring to him - he's probably gotten tired of hearing about people who dislike the breadth of supplements, just like the "fewer supplement" customer is tired of feeling pressed by peers into using a bunch of supplements for his game.

Neither is the company's fault, it's up to us to make sure our games are harmonious and work well for us.

 

[Quasqueton]

Considering the original poster, I would say it's a very good guess that his argument has its basis in 3.xe D&D.

OK, well, half an hour and 30 views after reporting it, I guess I'll have to address this myself.

First, a review of the forum Rules:

Keep it civil: Don't engage in personal attacks, name-calling, or blanket generalizations in your discussions. . . . be careful about ascribing motives to the actions of others . . .

Considering the original poster said nothing of particular games or editions of games, it should be obvious (not a guess) that the discussion is about game companies and game customers in general.

Quasqueton

 

[The_Magician]

There is too much junk coming out that I will never use. Market segmentation.

Lets use the example of, say, morning cereals. Suppose Corn Flakes from Kellogs was the first morning cereals (at least I think it was the first to come here to Brazil, but I am just trying to show how segmentation works). So, by creating a new product that didnt exist before and by introducing it in the culture of our society, where we start eating morning cereals during breakfast, a new market is born. The first one or two companies to release products in a new market usually dominate about 75% of that market. The rest is divided among all the swarm of smaller companies trying to infiltrate that market with their products.

So, those smaller companies have two options. Either they release ANOTHER Corn Flakes and try to fight the big ones, which is crazy, or they try to be leader of a small share of that market. How? By segmenting it. So, this morning cereals market only has Corn Flakes, eh? Well, I will try to bring to me all those customers who would rather have a CHocolate Flavored morning Cereal! I will release the first Chocolate flavored one and be the leader of Chocolate Flavored morning cereals! Then another releases a Honey Flavored! Mixed Fruits! Banana! Diet Chocolate! Diet Corn Flakes! Corn Flakes with Extra Sugar! And so on and so forth...

In response, the big companies have also to vary their range of products. If Kellogs decided to stick with Corn Flakes till today, imagine how much market share they would have lost? Instead, they released Rice Crisps, ChocoCrisps, Froot Loops, etc etc. And that's why Pepsi has so many flavors. You are not supposed to drink them all. The more flavors they have, though, the more money they make, because instead of losing a customer to someone who would prefer to drink a X-flavored soda instead of Pepsi, Pepsi releases her X-Flavored Pepsi.

That's why there is so much "junk". LIke Psion said, this is not pokemon. You are not supposed to catch them all. Companies know they are not selling for everybody. That's why you see a lot of small companies in the RPG market saying it is a tough market to make money. It is VERY segmented. It started segmenting with game systems. White Wolf, Call of Cthulhu, GURPS, 7th Sea, etc etc etc. Note how the game settings/systems that have a stronger name in the rpg market have a very especifc identity, instead of just trying to copy D&D. In the World of Darkness you are roleplaying the Creatures of the Night. In Call of Cthulhu you are roleplaying normal humans in a horror setting based on the novels of Lovecraft. Gurps is focused on those who would want a more flexible, universal system. GURPS is almost like an old D20. I remember a few game settings that were released under the GURPS rules, two of them brazilian settings!

Talking about D20, when D20 and OGL came around, we saw an even bigger segmentation. Many more smaller companies entering the already very segmented market and segmenting it even more with segmented adventures and segmented sourcebooks. It was such a master play from WoTC, because D20 ended up being infiltrated in the smaller shares from many of WoTC's competitors, making them weaker. Segmentation is why WoTC buys some settings or remove others!

People complain about everything. You have to pay attention to the complains, though, because the negative feedback is usually especific, straight to the point and can help you find a problem/opportunity in/for your company, while the positive feedback is usually generic and helps as much as a tap on the back.

So, I think that if a lot of people are complaining about a certain company, because that company is not releasing many products, that company, which probably has a very small share in the rpg market (since WoTC cant be that company, because it releases a lot of products), should pay attention and see if it could be profitable for them to expand. A little market research never hurts.

Now, people complaining about too many products... I dont think that's a problem, if they are complaining that they cant afford them all. If it's because they are all junk, the number of products wouldnt matter. If all the products released were junk and were not bought, regardless of how many, that means the companies wouldnt be making money.

The thing is, the companies, obviously, know how profitable each of their products is and know what kind of products their segmented target audience likes, and will continue to produce those. I dont think small companies can release so many good products so fast. The only company I can see capable of releasing a very large ammount of products is WoTC and they know each product will satisfy an especific target audience, a lot more than others.

The only real problem I can see is if people were complaining that they can't find good rpg products to buy.