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Took Enemy Fire in Edition Wars

Herschel

Adventurer
The environment around these forums needs a bit of an adjustment if they are going to be of greatest use for WotC going forward. Posters cannot be walking on eggshells, needing to constantly caveat and couch any criticism they have of ANY edition as not an attack on its players or fans. The edition warring, false accusations of edition warring, the broad-brushing and marginalization all needs to come to and end if the new edition is going to get a fair chance at actually pleasing a large portion of the overall fanbase.

Except this is EN World, where it's generally better to start flinging the poo than responding to it because Mods can't be everywhere at once (Duh, right? :) ). But it's a big issue in having good conversations as things tend to escalate before they're even seen by moderators and then they have to start a crackdown because it's already blown up. It's one thing to like or dislike something but it's another to open with words/phrases like "failure", "not D&D", etc. That's not "walking on eggshells", that's intentionally pushing for a peeing match.

(edit: trying to figure out how to word this better)
 
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B.T.

First Post
There really aren't any edition wars on these forums. There are a few edition warriors, but things are really quite polite, especially for an Internet forum. If you want to see edition warring, just check out the "Game Balance Bullsh*t" thread on TheRPGSite. That's an edition war.
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
While I'm about to post some contrary opinions, I want to say that your post is one of the clearest and most forthright I've seen on these topics.

When 4e came out and I tried it, I had a majorly averse reaction. This was not because of the game by itself. I am sure had it been marketed under any other brand name, and, much more importantly, would not have come with a, from my view, complete mess up of the Forgotten Realms, changes to other things like naming half the elves Eladrin, I would have liked it.
Nod. I've never been a fan of FR, so that wasn't on my radar. Symantic distinctions like high-elf vs eladrin are easy to ignore, or even poke fun at, you don't even have to change actual rules to do it, just labels and flavor text. My second 4e character was an Eladrin Wizard McFighter who called himself a 'High Elf' (The PH even says that's what some call the Eladrin) and whom I'd describe out of character as a "fighter/magic-user;" he was always grubbing up ritual books because he set great store in learning as many rituals as possible. ;) I re-skinned some of his gear or class abilities as magic items (I rationalized being able to cast scorching burst all day as having a 'wand of (lesser) fire-balls'), explained that he learned magic from an ancestor's spellbook from a 'time before, when magic worked differently' (AD&D), so he'd make comments like "My ancestors notes mention memorizing Tenser's Floating Disk, but I've never been able to manage it - just as well, I suppose, since I memorized Sleep today, and I wouldn't have been able to cast it /his/ way without spending even more time re-momorizing than this ritual-casting will take..."

4e has a lot of flexibility in 'flavor,' and had a lot of nostalgic fun with that character acting a bit like a classic Elven Fighter/Magic-User (with not a single actual 'house rule' required, just a lot of messing with flavor text and backstory). So 'feel' can be a somewhat flexible and very personal thing.

As it was, it didn't feel like D&D to me at all. It was like a betrayal by the game designers, and with 2 exceptions, everyone I knew felt the same way.
I can see how 4e doesn't quite feel like D&D, but it's a matter of degree. I found 4e good enough on it's merits and 'close enough' to D&D that I didn't mind the different feel, and, like I said, above, I could change feel a lot just messing with flavor text while leaving the rules intact.

D&D started out emulating the broader fantasy genre (very broad, as they included HP Lovecraft among their influences), and failed to capture it in a number of ways. It then rested on it's early success for 25 years or so, and that flawed genre-emulation because a sub-genre all it's own. D&D went from a poor simulation of fantasy, to a perfect simulation of itself, in a way.

4e is probably a better take on heroic fantasy than D&D ever had been before - with a good does of cinematic action, to boot - but that made it a very poor simulation of D&D's self-defined de-facto sub-genre.

I have serious doubts that the edition wars in regards to 4e are based on how the game plays in most cases. As it was just pointed out, you rename some things and change the background and the same people who hate hate hate 4e suddenly like it.

So when someone goes at you for playing a board game, miniature game, how messed up the rules are or whatever, most of the time what they are saying is "how can you support the edition that betrayed all that our D&D stood for?" Harass the 4e players, so they might stop playing (as if) and maybe 4e will fail and we get the "real" D&D back.
That's an articulation of the "h4ter" camp's position that's as articulate and sympathetic as I ever heard. I wish we'd heard that sort of thing much earlier on, or better yet, instead of all the bizzare accusations of 'board game' and 'MMO' and so forth.

Ultimately, though, the "h4ters'" campaign worked, and 4e is dead. 5e may even qualify as "real D&D" - that is, go back to emulating the self-referent sub-genre D&D created for itself through sheer inertia back in the day. I'd had enough of that particular sub-genre by 1995, and even if I feel a nostalgic whim for it, I can satisfy it with a character like Varinhal or a campaign subtley tweaked in that direction or one of the odd 1e AD&D games I see at the local con each year. 4e presents me with a lot more potential, a bigger slice of the fantasy genre to explore with one system, so I'll be playing it for the foreseeable future if 5e limits itself to just the "real D&D feel."

The 2 people from my groups who also play 4e say that they just ignored the changes to the settings and racial backgrounds and added a few house rules. Something we basically did a lot with all editions.

Of course, now some other 4e players claim that they do not really play 4e ;)
4e's the first edition that I haven't felt the need to house-rule much at all. The mutable, divorced-from-the-mechanics approach to flavor text provide enough flexibility, and, as a DM, I do /add/ things willy-nilly, as I love creating new monsters and magic items.

In spite of not feeling the need to use them, I have come up with lots of possible variants for 4e, as I'm an inveterate rules-tinker. As such, I've noticed a sort of sea-change in the community starting with 3e, actually. Variants are called 'house-rules' nowadays, and accorded very little interest - and often no respect at all - "you can do that, but it's a house rule" became the cut sublime of 3.x rules debates. RAW became sacred and inviolable. It seemed bizarre to me, as someone who'd always modified games heavily and liked reverse-engineering them, but it was quite pronounces, and, AFAICT, still alive and well.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
I'm sorry you didn't understand what I was trying to say.

I only know what you wrote.

I have serious doubts that the edition wars in regards to 4e are based on how the game plays in most cases. (. . .)

So when someone goes at you for playing a board game, miniature game, how messed up the rules are or whatever, most of the time what they are saying is "how can you support the edition that betrayed all that our D&D stood for?"

Any time you find yourself attributing a broad and unflattering motivation to a group of people, it's probably a good idea to rethink what you are posting as it is probably untrue and likely to incite the very edition wars you claim exist only in other people. I guess it's quite possible you don't understand what you are doing in the quoted passages but, I assure you, it isn't helping matters to take that point of view. Honestly, at this point, after your repeated insistence that you don't understand, I really don't think I can explain it any better to you. Furthermore, now you have another poster not only running with your broad and unflattering false-motivation but taking a step further by dismissing what you say folks actually put forth as criticism (board game, minis game, etc.) and dismissing those actual criticisms in favor of your broad misinterpretation of the motivation behind those criticisms and adding the unflattering epithet "h4ter" to the mix from someone else who has already broad brushed criticisms of the current edition by saying, "Ultimately, I think the edition wars are mostly about perceived 'betrayal' vs brand-loyalty, nostalgia vs enthusiasm for the new, and other mostly emotional/irrational reasons." It's just bull. There are plenty of good reasons to be critical over just about ever game that has ever been made but allowing folks to make sweeping generalizations about those who are critical of any particular game or ruleset is hugely problematic toward garnering any feedback from the very people that WotC has outright said they wish to bring back to the table.
 

Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
"not D&D"


If that is the way someone feels about a ruleset and has reasons for it, there's no reason to classify that as an unreasonable criticism of a particular version of D&D. It doesn't harm you or change your game or change the way you play or take anything away from your game for someone else to feel differently than you. If someone even watches your specific game and categorizes it as not their idea of how a roleplaying game is played, that's just their opinion. Certainly, they should be on the hook to be a bit more specific about why, as I am sure WotC would love to get that more detailed feedback, but dismissing their opinion as if it is just nostalgia or someone not interested in anything new is where the problems begin.
 

NewJeffCT

First Post
There really aren't any edition wars on these forums. There are a few edition warriors, but things are really quite polite, especially for an Internet forum. If you want to see edition warring, just check out the "Game Balance Bullsh*t" thread on TheRPGSite. That's an edition war.

What kind of an idiot makes a post like that! Your edition is awful and anybody who likes it is a complete & utter moron who loves Jar Jar Binks. I wouldn't clean a messy diaper with the pages of YOUR EDITION.

:D

(just in case somebody doesn't get it, the above was said in jest. While there have been some flames/rudeness, I agree that it has generally been pretty civil most of the time.)
 

Lwaxy

Cute but dangerous
Any time you find yourself attributing a broad and unflattering motivation to a group of people, it's probably a good idea to rethink what you are posting as it is probably untrue and likely to incite the very edition wars you claim exist only in other people. I guess it's quite possible you don't understand what you are doing in the quoted passages but, I assure you, it isn't helping matters to take that point of view. Honestly, at this point, after your repeated insistence that you don't understand, I really don't think I can explain it any better to you. Furthermore, now you have another poster not only running with your broad and unflattering false-motivation but taking a step further by dismissing what you say folks actually put forth as criticism (board game, minis game, etc.) and dismissing those actual criticisms in favor of your broad misinterpretation of the motivation behind those criticisms and adding the unflattering epithet "h4ter" to the mix from someone else who has already broad brushed criticisms of the current edition by saying, "Ultimately, I think the edition wars are mostly about perceived 'betrayal' vs brand-loyalty, nostalgia vs enthusiasm for the new, and other mostly emotional/irrational reasons." It's just bull. There are plenty of good reasons to be critical over just about ever game that has ever been made but allowing folks to make sweeping generalizations about those who are critical of any particular game or ruleset is hugely problematic toward garnering any feedback from the very people that WotC has outright said they wish to bring back to the table.

No, it's not untrue. A good part of the 4e haters (not the critiques) don't have much of a motivation but "down with 4e." I've just experienced a chat session where half the time was spent rejoicing about the death of the hated edition, together with the hopes that nothing of it would go into 5e, all the time not even knowing what 4e was really about, other than "miniatures" and "not an RPG." There were sentiments of "we won" and "now wizards won't try it again" among other even more strange comments. And the atmosphere in the FLGS' around here is largely similar, complete with store owners commenting on how 4e players usually don't want to play in the store. Someone would inevitably come in and make snide comments.

There is a big difference between people who don't play 4e

- because the rules aren't what they want for D&D and who vocalize their concerns in a useful, polite manner, and who generally don't care if people play 4e and enjoy it.

- who jump at you for mentioning you play or, as it has happened to me, for mentioning you took some of the 4e ideas into your houserules. Or make people leave their non-4e groups because of the constant jibes.

So no, it's not "just bull." I've seen and heard it, and the community's tendencies to swipe it under the rug is irritating. And those who come at you at games or conventions with anti-4e comments are usually those who don't care what exactly the rules are.
 



Mark CMG

Creative Mountain Games
A good part of the 4e haters (not the critiques) don't have much of a motivation but "down with 4e."


So, you're willing to downgrade your sweeping generalization from "most" to merely a "good portion?" I'd say we're making some progress. Now if we can get you to take it a step further and call out specific people when they make such comments instead of using the broad brush to generalize, I'd say we'll all be in better shape.
 

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