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Torchwood episode 4

Volaran

First Post
This is sort of random, but I remember hearing that there were problems during Torchwood filming regarding the cameras. I'm wondering if we're starting to see this, or if they were able to correct it at all.

I'm not sure how to put this exactly, but the show seems to visually bright when lower/more moody lighting would be more in line with the rest of things.
 

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Cthulhudrew

First Post
Volaran said:
This is sort of random, but I remember hearing that there were problems during Torchwood filming regarding the cameras. I'm wondering if we're starting to see this, or if they were able to correct it at all.

I'm not sure how to put this exactly, but the show seems to visually bright when lower/more moody lighting would be more in line with the rest of things.

They did indeed seem to have some troubles. It had to do with, from what I gather, wanting to shoot in Hi Definition but in really dark light (for mood), but couldn't get things to work out, so they had to reshoot in brighter lighting.
 

Cthulhudrew

First Post
I thought this was the weakest of the four episodes thus far. I think there were some kernels of a good story in there- actually, there were kernels of several good stories in there, but they seemed all mishmashed together, and nothing really substantive came of it.

For example, a Ianto-centric episode was a good idea, as we've seen/learned nothing of him so far. Unfortunately, when the episode centers around him being a complete git who puts everyone in danger, and whose actions lead to the deaths of two innocents, and then we have an extended scene featuring his anguish where- presumably- we're supposed to be moved by the pain he is going through... needless to say, it didn't work for me. If we'd learned more about him in previous episodes, if we'd had some groundwork for us to say- hey, this guy is a standup and interesting fellow, rather than having it thrown at us all of a sudden that he's a man tormented by love and his actions are a result of that torment, it might have sat better with me. Give me some buildup, is what I'm saying. Now I really don't give any sort of fig about Ianto at all.

(Plus, that whole scene where Ianto is talking about "oh, you've never bothered to ask about me before, you don't care." Wah, and wah. Not feeling it, dude.)

The love story in and of itself might have been an interesting exploration- but there wasn't enough done with it. We get some glimpses of Lisa's humanity early on, then *blammo* she's suddenly and incomprehensibly full-on Cyberwoman. Just as suddenly, she decides she needs to sacrifice her cyberness for Ianto's love. It just didn't play out evenly.

Far too much time was spent with some other story elements that seemed tacked on as well. The snogging in the morgue drawer, as horacethegrey mentions, seemed random and unnecessary to me. Much like the overtly (and needlessly) sexual gun shooting scene from last week, it was just over the top. I don't mind the snogging and adult themes, but I just think they go about them in a tacky way. No sense of subtlety, no sense of trying to really fit them into the plot. It's like the director just shouts out- "okay, um, how about you shove your tongue down her throat?" and the actors don't ask "what's my motivation?" ;)

Similarly, Jack trying to revive Ianto- that didn't look much like mouth-to-mouth resuscitation the way I learned it. Kind of pointless. If you want to have same sex snogging, do it, don't concoct some silly scenario for it, just have it actually occur as a result of character development and plot.

I also got tired of hearing Toshiko constantly saying how she couldn't leave everyone behind; okay, we got it the first time. Not to mention Jack's constant reiterations of how he's in charge and everyone needs to listen to him. If they aren't listening, then you're not getting through, and maybe you need to hire a better staff.

Jack's darkness is getting old. This isn't the character I begrudgingly came to enjoy on Doctor Who, and whose return I so eagerly anticipated. Plus, the darkness almost seems more like something we're being told about, and not seeing. "You're the monster!" Really? What's he done so far that's so monstrous, besides yell at his panic stricken, unprofessional team? Oh, yeah- he isn't willing to help the lying, whining sack with his murderous, rampaging girlfriend. That's evil, man. Give love a chance, Jack!

Plus, a cyberwoman can't take out a single pterodactyl? Wow. The Mondans wouldn't have had any problems. ;)

I've enjoyed Torchwood so far- it hasn't knocked my socks off, but it's fun. This episode really just tanked for me.

On the plus side, it looks like next week we'll finally start getting some answers about Jack.
 

delericho

Legend
Cthulhudrew said:
Similarly, Jack trying to revive Ianto- that didn't look much like mouth-to-mouth resuscitation the way I learned it. Kind of pointless. If you want to have same sex snogging, do it, don't concoct some silly scenario for it, just have it actually occur as a result of character development and plot.

Yeah, that was odd.

I also got tired of hearing Toshiko constantly saying how she couldn't leave everyone behind; okay, we got it the first time.

That reminds me of the one thing that really bugged me about the episode. Okay, when the Cyberwoman was loose, they very sensibly locked down the base. Can't risk her getting free, and if that means the death of the whole team, the so be it. Makes sense.

Then, having realised that they're all going to die, Jack directs one of the members of the team to open the doors and go outside. What? Is he insane? What was to stop the Cyberwoman from catching Toshiko, leaving the base, and rebuilding a cyber-conversion unit elsewhere?
 

delericho

Legend
horacethegrey said:
Sorry, gotta disagree. The new series of Doctor Who did a much better job of selling the Cybermen as scary and menacing adversaries for the good Doctor.

They struck me as too slow and clunky. And the "Delete, delete, delete" refrain was less menacing than "Resistance is Futile". But, mostly, the problem was the Doctor and Rose's attitude to the whole thing, especially in the alternate-earth episodes. They didn't really seem to be taking them as seriously as they should.
 

horacethegrey

First Post
delericho said:
They struck me as too slow and clunky. And the "Delete, delete, delete" refrain was less menacing than "Resistance is Futile".

Wasn't that the point? The Cybermen are supposed to be clunky and slow footed, not to mention having an inelegant and soulless exterior. All the more to reinforce the fact that these were humans forced into a cold iron shell. If you had the Cybermen all sleek and fast, I don't think it would have been all that tragic.

Although I do agree, the DELETE line was very lame. But I find the "Resistance is Futile" line highly overrated as well.

delericho said:
But, mostly, the problem was the Doctor and Rose's attitude to the whole thing, especially in the alternate-earth episodes. They didn't really seem to be taking them as seriously as they should.

Well isn't that what the Doctor does? Laugh at the face of danger and death? He's done it against the Daleks, why should the Cybermen be any different? He's faced and defeated them a number of times before, why should he be quaking in his boots facing them now?

And when was Rose not taking them seriously? She was pretty shaken up by them, especially when she found out that parallel mother had been turned into one.
 

delericho

Legend
horacethegrey said:
Wasn't that the point? The Cybermen are supposed to be clunky and slow footed, not to mention having an inelegant and soulless exterior.

The problem was that they were so slow and so noisy. Plus, being of human rather than alien origin, these Cybermen didn't benefit from having technology that was a quantum leap above the rest of the world's. Putting these factors together, I fail to see how any normal armed force could fail to defeat them, especially once the initial shock factor had worn off.

There isn't even the "OMG, we're shooting our own families!" factor to worry about, since they're deliberately dehumanised creatures.

Now, when striking from surprise, against civilians, or when able to position themselves in a very advantageous position, I can see them having the advantage. But I didn't see how they could really gain that advantageous position in a realistic way.

Plus, the way they walked was just goofy.

All the more to reinforce the fact that these were humans forced into a cold iron shell. If you had the Cybermen all sleek and fast, I don't think it would have been all that tragic.

There were some absolutely stellar moments in those episodes, notably the Doctor's line "because it hurts", the interrogation of the captured Cyberman, and the moment with Rose's 'mother' you mentioned below. But, really, I found they gave an impression of the fear generated by the concept of the Cybermen, but not a sense that these Cybermen were necessarily a potent threat, if that distinction makes sense.

Although I do agree, the DELETE line was very lame. But I find the "Resistance is Futile" line highly overrated as well.

Fair point. On reflection, the most chilling Borg line was Locutus' dismissal of Worf's defiance with a simple, "Death is irrelevant."

Well isn't that what the Doctor does? Laugh at the face of danger and death? He's done it against the Daleks, why should the Cybermen be any different? He's faced and defeated them a number of times before, why should he be quaking in his boots facing them now?

The impression I got from Ecclestone's Doctor was that he alwasy genuinely feared the Daleks when he met them, but when actually interacting with them he was all bluster and confidence. His insistance that they immediately destroy the Dalek in "Dalek", and the look on his face when the cloak was deactivated in "Bad Wolf" both betrayed real fear.

By contrast, Tennant's Doctor seemed to take the notion of the Cybermen in stride. Indeed, he seemed almost gleeful when 'surrendering'. It felt like 'been there, done that', which is fine, but hardly conducive to producing a feeling of fear in the audience.

(I was also mildly disappointed that he didn't even mention the possibility of trying gold, because you never know. But that's not really relevant to the matter at hand.)
 

Narsil

First Post
By contrast, Tennant's Doctor seemed to take the notion of the Cybermen in stride. Indeed, he seemed almost gleeful when 'surrendering'. It felt like 'been there, done that', which is fine, but hardly conducive to producing a feeling of fear in the audience.

Well, I'm drawn back to Rose's line at the end of Season 28/2/whicheversystemyou'reworkingon to the Black Dalek: "Five million Cybermen? No problem. One Doctor? Now you're scared!"

In contrast, David Tennant's Doctor showed much more concern about the Daleks being there than the Cybermen. But not as much as Eccleston since Tennant's Doctor seems to have a greater skill in 'bluff' than his immediate predecessor :p. As for their scariness; it comes from them being altered and 'assimilated' humans who want to also convert the rest of the human race to 'be like us'.

(I was also mildly disappointed that he didn't even mention the possibility of trying gold, because you never know. But that's not really relevant to the matter at hand.)

I always found gold to be a hackneyed and ridiculous method of defeating the Cybermen, and I'm rather glad that they dropped it, to be honest. Besides; gold would send them even further into ridiculousness.

I really enjoyed that episode. It made the Cybermen scary in a way that the recent series of Doctor Who just did not, and in the way that the Borg were before Janeway got her hands on them.

Of course, I find the Borg to be annoying wannabes who are just one of the many Doctor Who ripoffs in Star Trek ;). Towards the end (not counting season 4 of Enterprise), Star Trek had less originality in its creations than a bloody photocopier.
 

delericho

Legend
Narsil said:
Well, I'm drawn back to Rose's line at the end of Season 28/2/whicheversystemyou'reworkingon to the Black Dalek: "Five million Cybermen? No problem. One Doctor? Now you're scared!"

Good line, that.

I always found gold to be a hackneyed and ridiculous method of defeating the Cybermen, and I'm rather glad that they dropped it, to be honest. Besides; gold would send them even further into ridiculousness.

Mostly, I agree. However, having established the weakness to gold, I would have preferred it be at least mentioned.

What I thought they might do, and what I think might have been particularly effective, would have been if the Doctor had assumed they were the same Cybermen he'd faced before, and tried gold... only to find it totally ineffectual.

Thus, you give the older fans their 'nostalgia' moment, you remove the weakness to gold, and you emphasise the menace posed by these Cybermen.

Of course, I find the Borg to be annoying wannabes who are just one of the many Doctor Who ripoffs in Star Trek ;). Towards the end (not counting season 4 of Enterprise), Star Trek had less originality in its creations than a bloody photocopier.

Um, the Borg are now actually a fairly early Star Trek element. They were introduced in season 2 (or perhaps 3) of Next Gen. So, that would be the 5th (or 6th) season overall, out of 28 (3 OS, 7 TNG, 7 DS9, & Voy, 4 Ent). Plus, the stylistic design of the Borg is considerably different from that of the Cybermen. That may not seem like much, but consider...

both the Borg and the Cybermen are just new representations of the Zombie genre, where once-human creatures come after the living to destroy them and make more 'like us'.
 

horacethegrey

First Post
delericho said:
Mostly, I agree. However, having established the weakness to gold, I would have preferred it be at least mentioned.

What I thought they might do, and what I think might have been particularly effective, would have been if the Doctor had assumed they were the same Cybermen he'd faced before, and tried gold... only to find it totally ineffectual.

Thus, you give the older fans their 'nostalgia' moment, you remove the weakness to gold, and you emphasise the menace posed by these Cybermen.

Well count me as one who's glad they got rid of the gold weakness and also not mentioning it. I found it horribly cheesy, and so too would modern audiences. And honestly, if the Doctor tried something like that, wouldn't it come off as a bit daft?

DOCTOR: Haha! (throws gold paint over Cyberman)

(Cyberman merely shrugs it off, and continues advancing towards him.)

DOCTOR: (eyes widen in surprise) Oops.
ROSE: What are you doing?!
DOCTOR: Funny, it worked the last time.
ROSE: (screaming) Would you just stop mucking about?!

delericho said:
Um, the Borg are now actually a fairly early Star Trek element. They were introduced in season 2 (or perhaps 3) of Next Gen. So, that would be the 5th (or 6th) season overall, out of 28 (3 OS, 7 TNG, 7 DS9, & Voy, 4 Ent). Plus, the stylistic design of the Borg is considerably different from that of the Cybermen. That may not seem like much, but consider...

both the Borg and the Cybermen are just new representations of the Zombie genre, where once-human creatures come after the living to destroy them and make more 'like us'.

Um, the Cybermen were introduced way back in 1966, a whopping 23 years before the intro of the Borg in 1989. Add to that the many similarities that they share, and I'm afraid the case for the Borg being original isn't strong.

As for the zombie theory, I don't buy it. The Cybermen and Borg forcefully change other species to build their ideal society. They may cause a lot of havoc, but in the end all they desire is order and unformity. Zombies on the other hand, have no such forward thinking whatsoever, and exist solely to cause chaos... Not to mention have a snack of human flesh. :)
 

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