Touch AC question...

[Doc Ezra]

See, the problem I have is that people are quick to say "it says only use Dex and deflection" (well, and size, though that's irrelevant in the example) (and this is incidentally not what it says, precisely). Nobody ever points out that it is very careful to specify what kinds of bonuses get IGNORED. To wit: "...your AC does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus..." (PHB p. 119).

If armor gets an enhancement bonus, why do we automatically assume it's ignored as well? The book doesn't say that ONLY size, Dex, and deflection count. It just says they "apply normally." They don't rule out the possibility of other bonuses applying, while they do specify precisely what types of bonuses are ignored by a touch attack.

As near as I can tell, there's no clear-cut example or rule that will be definitive on the issue, but if you ignore enhancement bonuses to AC, then all the spells that are balanced against a lack of saving throw by requiring an attack roll become broken, and higher level casters never miss anybody when attacking, and with spells that don't often give saves.

Add to this all the other kinds of bonuses to AC that aren't covered in the PHB text. Does a haste bonus apply? It's not listed. All the "Dex, deflection, size" only camp now have to figure out why haste wouldn't help you. Logic says it should.

 

[Gaiden]

Actually, the best way to put it is that with touch AC, the only thing that doesn't apply is the characters armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses.

I know it seems like semantics but when you get down to it, there are so many different types of possible bonuses to AC that stating it this way makes it the simplest.

You have as possible types of modifiers to AC

dodge
deflection
insight
sacred
profane
enhancement
inherent
size
luck

And I am sure there are others. Touch AC prevents any of the aforementioned 3 types of AC from working and any modifications to those (including enhancement bonuses to them as with the +5's in your example). However, if an enhancement bonus was added directly to your AC (an example escapes me at the moment) that would apply.

 

[Doc Ezra]

no, because the armor's bonus is an enhancement bonus

only size modifiers, Dex and deflection bonuses apply

[edit - Arravis, that's on pg 119 of the PH (so you can show your player )]

So Dodge bonuses don't count? See, the list doesn't claim to be exhaustive or restrictive as to which bonuses apply, just which ones don't. And it leaves lots of bonuses out. How do you decide which of those other types get counted and which don't. DM whim?

 

[IceBear]

Why on earth would you think that if you armor doesn't help against the touch attack, you would get the armor's enhancement bonus?

I know this was argued a long time ago but I think it was agreed that the armor bonus = normal armor bonus + enhancement bonus.

IceBear

 

[Doc Ezra]

And I am sure there are others. Touch AC prevents any of the aforementioned 3 types of AC from working and any modifications to those (including enhancement bonuses to them as with the +5's in your example). However, if an enhancement bonus was added directly to your AC (an example escapes me at the moment) that would apply.

While I'm with you in the first half (other types of bonuses), I'm just not sure about the leap to assume that the enhancement bonuses get ignored. On one hand, it makes sense, and on the other, it breaks the balance of touch spells with no saves, particularly as the levels progress north of the 10th mark.

 

[Mr Fidgit]

Does a haste bonus apply? It's not listed. All the "Dex, deflection, size" only camp now have to figure out why haste wouldn't help you. Logic says it should.

good points all Doc, but i would say that the haste bonus from haste would apply, because the spell description specifically states that this bonus is lost whenever the hastee would lose a dodge bonus...

(which i would take to mean, for example, that the haste bonus to AC would apply normally for a touch attack, but not if the PC was flat-footed...)

 

[Doc Ezra]

Why on earth would you think that if you armor doesn't help against the touch attack, you would get the armor's enhancement bonus?

I know this was argued a long time ago but I think it was agreed that the armor bonus = normal armor bonus + enhancement bonus.

IceBear

Why on earth would you think that it doesn't? There's no place that it says "well, enhancement bonus really means armor bonus." They gave the bonuses names for very particular reasons, and I assume when they tell me that bonus types x, y, and z don't apply, then those are the only ones they meant. it would have been a simple matter to state that in the touch attack description, and yet they didn't, and haven't in any subsequent errata/printing/clarification. So you're assuming that through multiple revisions of the texts, it never occurred to anybody that they should add "enhancement bonus" to the list of things that a touch attack ignores? Seems no more or less baffling than assuming it isn't ignored.

 

[Doc Ezra]

good points all Doc, but i would say that the haste bonus from haste would apply, because the spell description specifically states that this bonus is lost whenever the hastee would lose a dodge bonus...

(which i would take to mean, for example, that the haste bonus to AC would apply normally for a touch attack, but not if the PC was flat-footed...)

Was really just an example (and perhaps too easily dealt with). Gaiden's got a much better list of trickier examples above.

 

[Zad]

Touch AC is 19.

 

[AuraSeer]

While I'm with you in the first half (other types of bonuses), I'm just not sure about the leap to assume that the enhancement bonuses get ignored.

Check this page, under the heading "Bonuses From Magic Items." It lists what each bonus type modifies.

An armor bonus modifies AC. A deflection bonus modifies AC. Ditto for dodge, natural armor, haste bonuses, etc.

Note that there is no such thing as an enhancement bonus to AC. An enhancement bonus on armor modifies the armor's bonus. The (now larger) armor bonus is what modifies your AC.

If you wear +5 full plate, you have a +13 armor bonus, and that's all. You do not have a +5 enhancement bonus to your AC, because there is no such animal.