Touch Attacks and DR

[Zandel]

I agree! Very good point.

 

[Coredump]

So if I make a normal attack with a longsword, dealing 3 points of damage against DR 5/-, you'd say the attack wasn't negated, just the damage, right?

Yes. You still 'hit' your opponent, you just don't do enough damage.

So why mention touch attacks at all if they work exactly like normal attacks?

To clarify. Without it you get people saying that you need to do 6+ pts of damage to get past 5/- DR, and so that touch attack with the contact poison didn't do 6 points of damage, so it doesn't work. With the clarification, you know that the touch attack of the contact poison can still work. But that doesn't mean that the normal damage starts working. Your interpretation means that a normal dagger thrown by the MT is as effective as a silver dagger against a werewolf. My interpretation doesn't go against RAW, but still makes sense with the werewolf, and still lets the MT get past the armor bonuses. (even natural armor)

 

[Khaalis]

I'ld like to just throw my $0.01 worth in here. This is JMHO of the interpretation of the situation. YMMV.

On this specific instance of the master throwing gaining a ranged "touch" attack with a weapon vs. DR...

1) Why mention Touch Attacks?
The point of this ability is NOT to make the attack act as a magical attack. The ability calls out that it is a ranged touch attack as a simplified ruling. The "touch" rules are only applied because the ability is allowing the thrower to bypass Armor bonuses, Natural Armor bonuses and Shield bonuses to AC. In effect the ability allows the thrower to hit a target much more easily than they normally would. It is NOT meant to give the weapon attack the properties of a spell attack.

2) Does DR apply?
Yes, DR applies to this "weapon attack" just as it does for any other weapon attack. This is NOT a Spell, Spell-like Ability, or an Energy Attack. It is a weapon attack.

Thus the thrower hurls his dagger and rolls an attack versus a TOUCH AC. If the attack is successful, the damage is resolved normally as per any weapon attack. Thus if the target has DR 5/- and the attack only deals 3 points of damage, no damage is assigned to the target as it was absorbed by their DR. The thrower has wasted their ability, just like if a Paladin 'Smites' a non-evil creature.

However, if the weapon in question in the above example has poison, an energy effect, or is carrying a touch spell such as through a spell channeling ability, these effects DO affect the target as the attack was successful.

So lets say the thrower has a 12 Strength and is using a Flaming dagger (+1d6 fire) and hits with the dagger against the opponent with DR 5/-. The dagger deals 1d4 +1 STR +1d6 Fire. In this scenario say the dagger deals 4 damage with an added 5 fire damage. The Piercing damage of 5 (4+1 STR) is absorbed by the DR 5/- but the Energy damage of 5 effects the target normally (assuming they do not also have Fire Resistance 5 or better).

Clearer?

 

[Hypersmurf]

To clarify. Without it you get people saying that you need to do 6+ pts of damage to get past 5/- DR, and so that touch attack with the contact poison didn't do 6 points of damage, so it doesn't work. With the clarification, you know that the touch attack of the contact poison can still work.

But it specifies that "injury-type poison" is negated.

If I have injury-type poison on my longsword, and I deal 3 points of damage with a normal attack against a creature with DR 5/-, no poison is delivered. If it's contact poison, however, the 3-damage attack with my longsword still delivers the poison, even though the damage was reduced to zero.

"Damage reduction does not ... affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact."

So again - why mention touch attacks, if you're going to treat them exactly the same as melee attacks?

DR does not negate touch attacks. The Master Thrower's ability lets him make an attack that is not negated by DR. If you let the DR prevent that attack from having any effect on the target, the attack has been negated, which explicitly does not happen to touch attacks.

-Hyp.

 

[Khaalis]

"So again - why mention touch attacks, if you're going to treat them exactly the same as melee attacks?" - Hyper

Why? Because it is the already existing mechanic for how to roll an attack that bypasses all armor without havig to type out the full 2 sentences of details every time the ability comes up.

Touch Attack: “Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.”


I still agree that DR applies normally in this case. It is a weapon attack, not a touch spell, spell-like ability or supernatural attack. The ability states that it allows the thrower to make a Ranged Touch Attack rather than a Normal Attack - this refers to the attack roll itself. It says nothing about becoming a touch spell, spell-like ability, supernatural ability or anything else that automatically bypasses DR, nor does it state any changes to the rules for weapon damage or DR.

If the attack were meant to bypass DR, it would specifically state so and be a (Su) or (Sp) ability, not an (Ex). The advantage to the ability is that it uses a Ranged Touch Attack roll rather than a normal attack roll, thus granting the thrower a better chance to hit by removing AC bonuses from armor, shields and natural armor. That is all it does, and does it at a cost of the thrower's bonus STR damage to boot. This is not meant to be an inherently DR bypassing attack.

JMHO.YMMV.

 

[Krelios]

I think it makes perfect sense that touch attacks ignore DR, since touch attacks either don't have to hit with force to deal damage (i.e. spells, alchemical items, etc.) or they hit specific weak spots in armor and natural armor. In the Master Thrower's case, that trick allows him to hit a specific unarmored spot with his dagger. If he hit's a Marilith in the eye, does she still have DR? Obviously most people who support the DR even for touch attacks would say, yes. Some of you would say no. Officially, the RAW says DR doesn't apply, but that's only a guideline anyway.

Since it's all a matter of opinion at this point, I'd certainly allow it. The Master Thrower is pretty weak otherwise.

 

[Darth Malakh]

anybody mind "wraith strike"? 2nd level wiz/sorc, swift action to cast, makes all your melee attacks for that round touch attacks. never care about DR again.

Malakh

 

[Xiam]

I don't agree, Krelios.

Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains. Nor does it affect poisons or diseases delivered by inhalation, ingestion, or contact.

The text says negate and not affect. I think this refers to the fact, that a TA can transport spells or spell-like effects, regardless whether it dealt any damage or not, because the attacker hit the opponent with a touch attack which cannot be negated by the damage reduction. Independet from this the DR does reduce weapon-damage as ist does normally. Otherwise the rules would have to say, that touch attacks do ignore DR, or the other way round, that DR does not affect touch attacks, what they don't do

 

[TheGogmagog]

"Damage reduction does not negate touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains"

So again - why mention touch attacks, if you're going to treat them exactly the same as melee attacks?

DR does not negate touch attacks. The Master Thrower's ability lets him make an attack that is not negated by DR. If you let the DR prevent that attack from having any effect on the target, the attack has been negated, which explicitly does not happen to touch attacks.

-Hyp.

I really disagree Hypermurf. In the core books there is no way to do physical damage with a touch attack, aside from energy damage, spells, poisons, energy drains etc...

If your interpretation is correct, the wording should read:
"Damage reduction does not negate damage from touch attacks, energy damage dealt along with an attack, or energy drains"

I firmly believe the reason they mentioned touch attacks is because the touch attack is how spells, energy, poisions etc.. are delivered. By stating this, it makes it clear that the energy damage or energy drain which is not being delivered by a spell is still delivered unaffected by DR.

Aside from this thower ability, what other ways can you do physical damage with a touch attack? I think there is a psionic sword that does this, does that clarify if it ignores DR?

 

[Hypersmurf]

I think this refers to the fact, that a TA can transport spells or spell-like effects, regardless whether it dealt any damage or not, because the attacker hit the opponent with a touch attack which cannot be negated by the damage reduction.

But I can deliver a touch spell with an unarmed strike, making an attack roll against normal AC. Even if DR reduces the damage from my unarmed strike to zero, the spell is still delivered.

So again - if the argument is that "Touch attacks are not negated" means "Touch attacks work exactly like any other attack", why bother calling them out specifically?

I could just as well add to the description of DR "Attacks with a battleaxe are not negated"... since even if the damage is completely blocked, the attack still takes place. But why would I bother mentioning the battleaxe specifically, when it works exactly the same way as any other weapon?

By stating this, it makes it clear that the energy damage or energy drain which is not being delivered by a spell is still delivered unaffected by DR.

But the very same sentence clarifies that energy damage and energy drain are not negated, so we already know that energy damage and energy drain dealt by a touch attack is covered. So why mention touch attacks specifically?

Aside from this thower ability, what other ways can you do physical damage with a touch attack?

There are a few Psionic feats that let your next attack be a touch attack.

-Hyp.