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Touch attacks and unarmed strike

Rkhet

First Post
What happens when you are hit twice by a lich monk? How many times do you save vs paralysis?

Related question: Kiss of the Vampire from LM gives Enervation and Vampiric Touch as a melee touch attacks. So with unarmed strikes: do you get one of them, once per round? One each per round? Or both on every melee attack you make?

Sort-of related question: can you use Maximize Spell with Kiss of the Vampire? It doesn't have variables of its own, but it grants uses of Enervation and Vampiric Touch, which are valid spells to Maximize.
 

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TheGogmagog

First Post
Rkhet said:
What happens when you are hit twice by a lich monk? How many times do you save vs paralysis?
Yes, touch attacks can be delivered with an unarmed attack. I believe the Slam attack is a standard action, so no flurry of blows or multiple attacks. You chose to deliver the slam attack normally or with an unarmed strike. Alternativly you may make a full attack action to make unarmed strikes, but no slam attack.

The difference is in a spell that discharges, say shocking grasp. Delivered normally, you only need to hit touch AC, if you crit (20x2) the SPELL does double damage. Delivered with an unnarmed strike, you have to hit the normal defender's AC, you deal unarmed strike damage plus the spell damage, if you crit the unarmed strike damge is doubled the spell damage is unaffected. The shocking grasp spell is discharged by hitting a target so you could make a full attack and the first hit would discharge the spell. The only benefit of delivering a slam attack with an unarmed strike is swaping touch AC with Full AC in order to do unarmed strike damage.

That's the way I understand it. I think Complete Arcane describes this.
 

Infiniti2000

First Post
Rkhet said:
What happens when you are hit twice by a lich monk? How many times do you save vs paralysis?
First of all, just a lich monk can't exist (per the rules anyway). But, the touch attack can only be used once per round.

Rkhet said:
Related question: Kiss of the Vampire from LM gives Enervation and Vampiric Touch as a melee touch attacks. So with unarmed strikes: do you get one of them, once per round? One each per round? Or both on every melee attack you make?
I'd say once per round, though I would allow it to be combined with other attacks (e.g. unarmed strikes, but note that they would not be touch attacks in such cases).

Rkhet said:
Sort-of related question: can you use Maximize Spell with Kiss of the Vampire? It doesn't have variables of its own, but it grants uses of Enervation and Vampiric Touch, which are valid spells to Maximize.
No. You gain those attacks as supernatural abilities. The maximize feat does not affect something that you gain as part of the spell. On the plus side, note also that Spell Resistance does not apply to the enervation, vampiric touch, or charm person because they are Supernatural.
 

Rkhet

First Post
Infiniti2000 said:
the touch attack can only be used once per round.

Infiniti2000 said:
I'd say once per round

Have you got a source to quote?

Also, say you have two separate effects that require a touch attack. Say a touch spell and an SU ability. Can you deliver both at the same time? And a Stunning attempt on top (with unarmed strike)?
 
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Infiniti2000

First Post
Rkhet said:
Have you got a source to quote?
From the lich template: "A lich has a touch attack that it can use once per round." :)

Rkhet said:
Also, say you have two separate effects that require a touch attack. Say a touch spell and an SU ability. Can you deliver both at the same time? And a Stunning attempt on top (with unarmed strike)?
Probably, but it depends on the effects. If a monk/mage/vampire casts ghoul touch, and then the following round he could make an unarmed strike that combines all three.
 

Rkhet

First Post
Infiniti2000 said:
From the lich template: "A lich has a touch attack that it can use once per round." :)

Oh? Bad example, then. My question was for those SU abilities that doesn't have this explicit limit, such as Kiss of the Vampire. Can you use the granted SU abilities multiple times in a single round?

I did find this from the SRD, though:

SRD said:
Using a supernatural ability is a standard action unless noted otherwise.

Does this mean you cannot use it as a part of a full attack at all?

Also, by the wording of the spell, the Enervation and Vampiric Touch effects are seperate SU abilities. So... I suppose you'd get both in the same touch? Quite overpowered for a lvl 5 spell.
 

Tharkon

First Post
EDIT: I know it's an old thread, but seeing as some things are left unanswered...

What happens when you are hit twice by a lich monk? How many times do you save vs paralysis?

The Lich's paralyzing touch ability does not list immunity to the attack on a succesful save so additional uses of the ability (in further rounds) require a new saving throw (unless the target is already affected by the Lich's paralysis of course).

Related question: Kiss of the Vampire from LM gives Enervation and Vampiric Touch as a melee touch attacks. So with unarmed strikes: do you get one of them, once per round? One each per round? Or both on every melee attack you make?

Each of these are seperate supernatural abilities require separate standard actions to use, so they can't be used at all if making a normal melee attack, since you can only take one standard action per round. The spell is allready really powerful, especially when used by an undead caster.
Furthermore, the Monk's abilities only function with specific weapons, this does not list natural weapons but lists unarmed strikes specifically. Therefore any touch attacks from the Lich, Vampire or similar templates or from spells or abilities can't be used with this. However the Lich template specifically states any existing natural weapons (like the Monk's unarmed strike) can be enhanced by 1d8+5 negative energy damage (Will save halves). But doing this requires an attack vs. the target's normal AC and no paralysis.

Sort-of related question: can you use Maximize Spell with Kiss of the Vampire? It doesn't have variables of its own, but it grants uses of Enervation and Vampiric Touch, which are valid spells to Maximize.

Maximize Spell changes variables of the spell in question, as you said it does not have any so it can't be affected by it.

Also, by the wording of the spell, the Enervation and Vampiric Touch effects are seperate SU abilities. So... I suppose you'd get both in the same touch? Quite overpowered for a lvl 5 spell.

You can use any one of these abilities, or any other ability or attack once per round as a standard action, which leaves you with one move-equivalent action left, unless disabled or staggered. Or forgo using any of these abilities and take a full-round action, like Flurry of Blows.

EDIT: On second thought, if you cast a spell which gives you multiple charges, like Chill Touch, then you may hold those charges and use them while making an unarmed strike or attack with a natural weapon. You attack against the Full AC and on a miss you don't lose a charge. Page 142 of the Player's Handbook. Alternatively you can cast the spell while at a distance, and then charge in on your next round. The restrictions being that you need a standard action for the spell during which you may make a touch attack or not, and another standard action (or full round action) for making attacks with the natural weapons. I guess a spell like Chill Touch works perfectly with Flurry of Blows this way (round 1: cast, then move; round 2: Flurry of Blows), but not many spells give you multiple charges. In either way you lose the charges if casting another spell. Whether these rules apply to Supernatural abilities in the same way is up to the DM I suppose.
 
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