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Tracy Hickman's view of the Dragon #300 sealed section

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Stormprince

First Post
Okay, I'm thinking that all of this is getting more than a little bit out of hand.

First of all, Tracy's correlation between "terrorism" was not just out from left field. He opened his mail box on September 11th, when you could not avoid thinking about terrorism (it was on just about every television station, in every newspaper, on every radio station). He saw something that offended him. He has the right to be offended. He also has the right to state his opinion in his own newsletter. Tracy has a very strong sense of what is good and evil, right and wrong, a strong sense of morality. His sense of morality was offended by seeing an entire magazine that is mailed to a wide-audience dedicated to "evil." A magazine where there are subscribers who are kids. A magazine with a "sealed" section to supposedly prevent children from reading it. Come on now, a sealed section? Who do you know didn't unseal that section? Do you think any of these same people who may not be able to get into an R-rated movie without being escorted by an adult asked permission from their parents before they unsealed that section?

I've read through the magazine. To me, it's a pure marketing ploy. It's shouting, "Look, we can be just as gritty and edgy as White Wolf! We're naughty! BUY OUR PRODUCTS!" Is that a bad thing? Not necessarily. Personally, I don't need any product to tell me how to "make evil really evil." I have plenty of resources in real life, as Tsyr pointed out. The fact that they're putting out only the Book of Vile Darkness, and not a companion "Good" book, just goes to show that it's one of those pure marketing manuscripts. Oh yeah, it was written by Monte Cook. How could I forget? How "dare" Tracy disagree with someone Monte or another writer put out. Shame on him. Grow up. Tracy and Laura Hickman worked for TSR to create the same worlds that still exist today. They created Ravenloft.

Tracy has never made it a secret how he feels about morality. He didn't agree with having a character just be a thief, so he envisioned a race of innocent kleptomaniacs. Tracy and Margaret have dealt with and created some of the most memorable "evil" characters in modern fantasy. Lord Soth. Count Strahd. Raistlin. Mina. Dalamar, and now Prince Dagnarus in the Sovereign Stone trilogy. Need I go on? What makes them interesting characters, however, isn't the fact that they are evil, but despite the fact that they are evil.

Just as you had the right to post how you view Tracy's comments, Tracy had the right to post his view on the editors and writers of Dragon Magazine. Is he upset? Yes, and perhaps rightfully so. Was he a bit extreme? Yeah, probably. But to be fair to him, you're only seeing a message that he typed up in the heat of the moment. You haven't read some of his responses to the Dragonlance fans on the mailing lists. You haven't sitten down and talked to him about his viewpoints. Just as you loudly proclaimed "I am boycotting all his Sovereign Stone and Dragonlance stuff," he has the right to "boycott" this one particular issue of Dragon Magazine.

Christopher Coyle
 

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Re: My response if I were writing to Tracy Hickman:

Henry said:
Live long, live well, and game well.

Henry Link
And thus you see why some of us are invited to be mods and some of us are not. Well said, Henry Link!
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ghoti69

First Post
I agree with the majority here. I'm offended with Mr. Hickman equating an article in a GAME magazine with the murder of thousands of innocents. Personally, I applaud Dragon magazine for having a set of cahoneys to do such a thing in a post-9/11, overly-PC world.

All one has to do is look at the latest destruction..er...re-release of E.T. to see how terrorists win when people adopt this type of attitude. I personally contacted my local Fox station when they played the Simpson's episode, "Homer vs. NYC" a couple of weeks ago. I had heard that they would never show that episode again because it focused almost primarily around the WTC. Kudos for them to show us how much we lost that day, and not be afraid to show it! If that piece of America had been lost, the terrorists would have won.

Mr. Hickman, I'm a DM, and I play Evil as it should be played, with a capital "E". What is the point of playing the game if my players are just looting and killing? I occasionally throw something into the game that offends and disgusts them to get them motivated. Case in point:

A cleric in one campaign had charmed an enemy cleric into fighting for the player's side. That cleric, and his allies, managed to escape, but the cleric's leader skinned him alive as a reward. Considering the leader, I thought it precisely the reaction she would have. When the players found out, they went after her with a VENGENCE. The final battle was one of the best role-played melees it had ever been my pleasure to DM. All because I "stepped over the edge" a little.

In the end, however, it's a game, nothing more. That's all it has ever been, all it will ever be. As I would say to the members of BADD, I say to you:

GET OVER IT!
 

Furn_Darkside

First Post
Stormprince said:
Okay, I'm thinking that all of this is getting more than a little bit out of hand.

Very well said- SP.

You were much more civil then I was going to be.

I've read through the magazine. To me, it's a pure marketing ploy. It's shouting, "Look, we can be just as gritty and edgy as White Wolf! We're naughty! BUY OUR PRODUCTS!"

Precisely.

It appears to be one more step in the direction of trying to be "edgy".

That is fine if that is the way they want to go, but I hope the subscriptions they gain will be more then the ones they find are not renewed.

FD
 

All--

Look, Tracy went over the top, but understand where he's coming from: he is, essentially, a minister in the Church of Jesus Christ and Latter Day Saints (a Mormon). (And by the way, I know the Mormons pretty well, although I'm not one, and no, they don't drink). You have to expect this sort of reaction from a person in his position, and while I don't agree with the opinion, I respect it.

Tracy has responded to some comments on the DL mailing list, I think. I'll try to repost anything interesting here.

--Walker
 

Mercule

Adventurer
*shrug* *snore*

Do I sympathize with Mr. Hickman's concerns?
Yes, although in no strong way. I'll probably buy BoVD.

Is equating content you don't like w/ 9-11 offensive?
Heck yes! It was one of the most grossly offensive things I've ever heard uttered by a not politician/political activist/commentator.

Was it foolish to make the association?
IMHO, yes. Comparing cruddy game content/management with an act of war is beyond foolish.

Will I boycott Mr. Hickman's future works because of it?
No. No more so that I boycott the movies of actors who say or support something that I find offensive (long list of examples withheld due to inflamitory nature).

It may make me more critical of his future work and less like to buy it, but I'm not into the whole "cutting off my nose..." thing. Lots of people irritate me by saying stupid things. I'd have a very short list of authors/actors/musicians of which to partake.
 

I did no such thing and offended at your suggestion. I merely pointed out that Hickman took the pathetically low road of denegrating something that the disagreed with as the worst kind of evil.

Demonizing the opposition is a base and pathetic arguement style that does not hold up during intelligent discourse. His statements were nothing more than an attempt to play with peoples emotions during a week when the media has already done the same to an extreme degree.




Furn_Darkside said:


Kind of like you just did with Hickman?

FD
 

Lazarus Long

First Post
Taking it Personal?

Remember the run-in Hickman and Monte had in the letters section of dragon a year or-so ago? Hickman had written an article that basically told players to do whatever it took to entertain themselves and Monte had replied, saying that Hickman's ideas would push a group over into anarchy (to paraphrase).

Hmmm....

Maybe Hicman doesn't like Monte.

(NOTE: this is pure, unfounded speculation. I have no idea if this is true. Hickman and Monte may be good friends as far as I know.)
 

Eosin the Red

First Post
I think you have to take this with a grain of salt. Instead of overreacting while accusing others of overreacting.

If I remember correctly didn't Hickman and Monte have a bit of a tiff in Scalemail column about an article in the not to distant past? He has strong beliefs, so do alot of us. He is free and correct to express those beliefs as he choses. I never had a problem with V:tg until I opened up Clan book: Bali but they went over the line with it. We all draw A line.

Equating him to a Latter Day Saint is not only rude but it is against the rules of this board and is derogatory to tLDS - [EDIT: It looks like that was less of an insinuation and more of a 'no really he is a LDS.' Still wrong but not nearly so, not really against the rules and not slanderous. Still wrong.]

Boy you sure are open minded (SIDE NOTE: only about the things you chose to be. When others disagree with you you make slanderous remarks about their religious preference)

Reactionary is as reactionary does. I do not agree with Hickmans opinion but I am embarassed by the some of the behavior here.
 
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Stormprince

First Post
ghoti69 said:
I agree with the majority here. I'm offended with Mr. Hickman equating an article in a GAME magazine with the murder of thousands of innocents. Personally, I applaud Dragon magazine for having a set of cahoneys to do such a thing in a post-9/11, overly-PC world.

All one has to do is look at the latest destruction..er...re-release of E.T. to see how terrorists win when people adopt this type of attitude. I personally contacted my local Fox station when they played the Simpson's episode, "Homer vs. NYC" a couple of weeks ago. I had heard that they would never show that episode again because it focused almost primarily around the WTC. Kudos for them to show us how much we lost that day, and not be afraid to show it! If that piece of America had been lost, the terrorists would have won.

Mr. Hickman, I'm a DM, and I play Evil as it should be played, with a capital "E". What is the point of playing the game if my players are just looting and killing? I occasionally throw something into the game that offends and disgusts them to get them motivated. Case in point:

A cleric in one campaign had charmed an enemy cleric into fighting for the player's side. That cleric, and his allies, managed to escape, but the cleric's leader skinned him alive as a reward. Considering the leader, I thought it precisely the reaction she would have. When the players found out, they went after her with a VENGENCE. The final battle was one of the best role-played melees it had ever been my pleasure to DM. All because I "stepped over the edge" a little.

In the end, however, it's a game, nothing more. That's all it has ever been, all it will ever be. As I would say to the members of BADD, I say to you:

GET OVER IT!

The point Tracy was trying to make here was that it seems that between Dragon 300 and the Book of Vile Darkness, it seems that WotC is encouraging PLAYERS to be evil, vile, corrupt and without any sense of morality. Villains are meant to be villains. He understands that. As a fantasy writer, he understands that. He doesn't agree that evil needs to be so visually visceral, but he's entitled to that opinion.

For gods sake people, you're only reading a PORTION of his newsletter and jumping to your own conclusions. Get ALL the facts before you make your verbal lambastings.

My gods.

You want to know what really offends me about this? The fact that WotC feels its okay to glorify evil, and let's face it, they're making evil pretty attractive to the average gamer. I know a lot of players who'd love to get their hands on some of those spells and feats in the "sealed section."

Yet, WotC forbids any hint of homosexuality in their products and novels. Why? Because it might offend some readers. How many people would holler and scream at WotC for having a gay character? How many of you would feel uncomfortable about it?

Christopher
 

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