Transmutation Abuse

[Zephrin the Lost]

A grab wouldn't normally do any damage, no, so it wouldn't end the power. Neither would a bull rush.

Exactly, but the effects of the transmutation provide no benefit to either attack except for CA. Aren't there at-wills that provide CA?

So I think it's a fine ability as written. Might be a game changer if used well or might be a fizzle due to bad luck or poor timing.

--Z

 

[Mummolus]

Whoops, double-post. Ignore this.

 

[Mummolus]

Toad -> Bag of Holding

Assuming they still need air, you'll end up with a nice shiny new corpse if you leave it there long enough.

 

[moxcamel]

Toad -> Bag of Holding

Assuming they still need air, you'll end up with a nice shiny new corpse if you leave it there long enough.

But again, with RAW the toad is going to be just as hard to shift as the normal creature would be. And if we're still talking about Vecna, I don't have his stats up, but I seriously doubt he's going to make it as easy as all that.

 

[gjnave]

So frog Vecna aside, you culd still do this with say,, and Ogre brute.

Honestly, the transmutation rules in 4e never make sense to me. There is one place that says you turn into the "whatever" which is the same size as your normal size.... so say I transmute into a bunny rabbit - it would be a 6' rabbit (with a strenght of 16, AC 19, etc...). *shrug*

Maybe this is the key.. you turn the dragon into a frog, but its a 30 foot tall frog

 

[The Little Raven]

So frog Vecna aside, you culd still do this with say,, and Ogre brute.

But you don't get all the benefits that you seem to think you get. Using Slimy Transmutation on an Ogre Brute would get you the following benefits:

The Brute would be a valid target for grab and bull rush attacks for all characters, since it is no longer Large sized (the power makes it Tiny).

The Brute would be dazed.

The Brute can only shift or move its speed and thus cannot attack or even attempt to break a grab.

Honestly, the transmutation rules in 4e never make sense to me. There is one place that says you turn into the "whatever" which is the same size as your normal size.... so say I transmute into a bunny rabbit - it would be a 6' rabbit (with a strenght of 16, AC 19, etc...). *shrug*

Unless something is explicitly stated in the description of the keyword or the power itself, it doesn't happen. If it is explicitly stated, it happens. Thus, since Slimy Transmutation says you change into a Tiny toad, then your size becomes Tiny.

Maybe this is the key.. you turn the dragon into a frog, but its a 30 foot tall frog

No, it turns into a Tiny toad, like the power says. However, that doesn't grant you any benefits beyond what is explicitly listed.

 

[moxcamel]

So frog Vecna aside, you culd still do this with say,, and Ogre brute.

8<... for brevity

Read Raven's answer, it's perfect.

As for why powers like this are the way they are, there are two design principles that govern 4e. (ok more than two, but these are the two that address your questions)

- Abstraction: It makes sense that if you turn something into a toad, you could just walk over and pick it up and stick it in a bag of holding or throw it over a cliff, or cut off its legs and stick 'em on the barby or whatever. But this is where you need to use your imagination. If someone bullrushes the little toad, maybe it's not really an actual bullrush but more like "he runs over and kicks the toad against a rock." Or maybe you can't pick the toad up because zomg it's effing Vecna and even though he's a toad, he's also effing Vecna. You sort of have to use your imagination about what's really going on past the mechanics.

- Balance: Being able to turn Vecna into a toad and toss him in your bag of holding is not only anti-climactic, it's ridiculous. If it really worked that way, every intelligent creature 1st level or above would find some way to have that power, either as a power, or in a magic item, or something. You'd never get to turn Vecna into a toad because he'd have done it to you first. Or every intelligent creature beyond 1st level would have some kind of magic item that prevents them from being turned into a toad. So at a meta level, there just has to be balance. It's surprising how many editions of D&D we've had to iterate through before this concept was really addressed in any serious way, but this is why you get a power at 1st level that allows you to turn somebody into a toad, yet doesn't instantly become an "I win" button.

 

[Wednesday Boy]

There is one place that says you turn into the "whatever" which is the same size as your normal size.... so say I transmute into a bunny rabbit - it would be a 6' rabbit (with a strenght of 16, AC 19, etc...). *shrug*

"Six feet, three and a half inches. Now let's stick to the facts." --Elwood P. Dowd

 

[Dausuul]

- Abstraction: It makes sense that if you turn something into a toad, you could just walk over and pick it up and stick it in a bag of holding or throw it over a cliff, or cut off its legs and stick 'em on the barby or whatever. But this is where you need to use your imagination. If someone bullrushes the little toad, maybe it's not really an actual bullrush but more like "he runs over and kicks the toad against a rock." Or maybe you can't pick the toad up because zomg it's effing Vecna and even though he's a toad, he's also effing Vecna. You sort of have to use your imagination about what's really going on past the mechanics.

- Balance: Being able to turn Vecna into a toad and toss him in your bag of holding is not only anti-climactic, it's ridiculous. If it really worked that way, every intelligent creature 1st level or above would find some way to have that power, either as a power, or in a magic item, or something. You'd never get to turn Vecna into a toad because he'd have done it to you first. Or every intelligent creature beyond 1st level would have some kind of magic item that prevents them from being turned into a toad. So at a meta level, there just has to be balance. It's surprising how many editions of D&D we've had to iterate through before this concept was really addressed in any serious way, but this is why you get a power at 1st level that allows you to turn somebody into a toad, yet doesn't instantly become an "I win" button.

Hmm. You look at the power, consider how it would logically play out in the game world, and conclude that game world logic is in error. I look at the power, consider how it would logically play out in the game world, and conclude that the power is broken--not because it's overpowered within the scope of the rules, but because the designer forgot that the D&D rules are not a closed space. Players can and will go beyond what the rules cover, and being turned into a toad is a massive disadvantage by any reasonable standard.

If the party wizard has just turned my enemy into a toad, and my PC has just successfully grabbed said toad, I want a solid in-game reason why I cannot pick it up and throw it in a bag of holding, or for that matter off a cliff. If the "grab" mechanic has mysteriously morphed into something that is not, in fact, physically grabbing the toad--then I'm not using the grab mechanic! I'm using whatever mechanic does in fact represent grabbing the damn toad, because that's what I want my character to do and it makes perfect sense that he could do it.

 

[Nullzone]

You've changed Vecna's volume by transfiguring him into a Tiny frog, but you have done nothing to his mass. He is incredibly dense and will be very hard to move around, despite his size.