Trap-disabler Wanted: Optimized halflings need only apply?

[Zerakon]

My group is planning to convert 3e characters. The trap-disabler of the group is likely going to be a 4th level human pirate-like fighter who multiclasses into rogue for Thievery. He'll likely have 16 Dexterity after conversion.

So, his Thievery skill will be +12 (+5 trained + 3 dex + 2 levels + 2 thieves tools).

When I look in the DMG at the example traps, I see trap after trap that I think will be frustrating for him. Here's one of the same level as the characters:

Pendulum Scythes (level 4) - DC22 Thievery. Complexity 1 (4 successes before 2 failures).

Assuming I did my math right, my friend's pirate character with his +12 Thievery has a 25.6% chance to successfully disable this trap. And a 74.4% chance of failure which makes the trap angry and more blades attack each round!

On the other hand, a 4th level halfling character who takes Skill Focus (Thievery) is going to have a Thievery of around +18 (+5 trained + 4 dex + 2 levels + 2 thieves tools + 2 halfling bonus + 3 skill focus). This character has a 89% chance of successfully disabling this trap, so only an 11% chance of fubaring the room.

25.6% compared to 89% is a pretty big discrepancy.

I'm wondering if 4e has taken this kind of philosophy in general? Is the game balanced for more optimized characters who concentrate on being really good at fewer things and "dabbler" characters are meant to struggle to be effective against traps, monsters, and other challenges of their own level?

Or -- and this is my guess -- is this just related to a poorly-conceived skill challenge system? If this particular trap was simply a one-roll DC22, the discrepancy between the pirate and the optimized halfling would at least be more reasonable: 55% success vs 85% success.

I'm thinking that I may do away with the skill challenge nature of traps and have my pirate player roll once to have a more reasonable chance of success. Are any other DMs running into this issue? If so, what are you doing about it?

 

[Norhg]

Or -- and this is my guess -- is this just related to a poorly-conceived skill challenge system?

That's the issue, the math doesn't quite work out the way it should.
I would change the challenge so it ends when the player has achieved 4 successes or failures, making it much more forgiving.
Either that, or make it so 2 failures in a row fails the challenge.

 

[Tuft]

Or -- and this is my guess -- is this just related to a poorly-conceived skill challenge system? If this particular trap was simply a one-roll DC22, the discrepancy between the pirate and the optimized halfling would at least be more reasonable: 55% success vs 85% success.

Yep, that's it. Look at all the threads about the skill challenge system. Basically, doing something as a skill challenge reinforces differences between different skill ratings, and makes the result more "swingy".

 

[Chimera]

I don't see the problem. 4th level Multiclass (ie, dabbler) at +12, up against a 4th level optimized Specialist at +18. I don't have any problem with the optimized specialist being 50% better at it than the dabbler. I'd be disappointed if this were not true.

 

[Zerakon]

I don't see the problem. 4th level Multiclass (ie, dabbler) at +12, up against a 4th level optimized Specialist at +18. I don't have any problem with the optimized specialist being 50% better at it than the dabbler. I'd be disappointed if this were not true.

The problem I have is that I don't think my player is going to have much fun, particularly with traps that get worse when you fail to disable them. I'd be disappointed if the dabbler was nearly as good as the specialist, too. However, I think with the RAW you might as well not even dabble as you're going to mess things up for your party far more than help.

 

[generalhenry]

actually the best way to handle traps in 4E is typically to stand back and attack them since the DCs for disabling them are ridiculous and their HP totals aren't so bad.

Nothing new really, in 3E I always just had my cleric handle the traps, he could simple take the damage and heal him self up for any trap in his CR range.

 

[Norhg]

I don't see the problem. 4th level Multiclass (ie, dabbler) at +12, up against a 4th level optimized Specialist at +18. I don't have any problem with the optimized specialist being 50% better at it than the dabbler. I'd be disappointed if this were not true.

1 - 89/25.6 = 2,4765625

The halflings is 248% more likely to successfully disarm the trap.
If it had been a straight check, the halfling would have been 55% more likely to disarm the trap. (1 - 85/55)

Do you still see no problem? Rembember that the characters have dedicated an equal amount of resources on thievery...

 

[Lord Sessadore]

Also, I can't help but notice that you gave the halfling Skill Focus, but not your pirate buddy. If he wants to be good at disabling traps, throw the extra feat at it, that will give him much better chance at success.

Pirate, as above, with skill focus: +15 (+5 trained, +3 Dex, +2 class, +2 tools, +3 skill focus). That only puts him 3 points behind the halfling; much greater chance of success. I don't have time to work out all the math for his success in the challenge right now, but I guarantee it's better than 25% with that

 

[webrunner]

I think one major problem is that DCs just seem.. really high. what's supposed to be a 'moderate' challenge skill check is 20 for a level 1 character: They get a 50% chance of success only if they're trained, and either have a huge modifier or some bonus. They need +9 to their skill to be able to make rolling a 11-20 beat 20. A hard check is 25, which means
a) character needs at least +5 to even have a chance to succeed,
and
b) if they only have +5, they'll only succeed on a 20.
and
c) if they have +9, which is again, a lot, they'll succeed only a quarter of the time.

It's just completely pointless to even try something that's hard unless you feel extremely lucky, and if there's a chance of a problem for a failure.. then you're better off not doing it.

An easy challenge, is dc 15, which means that something that's supposed to be 'easy' will still only succeed 25% of the time if you're not trained or have a good bonus. Easy passive perception checks will be missed by most characters.

The pendulum trap is level 4, dc 22. That means it's considered 'really' a dc 17 - a moderate challenge.

A stock character at level 4 will make a dc 12 50% of the time.

I think the problem is that you're supposed to consider easy to be 'usually succeeds', moderate to be 'succeeds half the time', and hard to be 'usually fails'.. but the rules are that easy is 'succeeds half the time', moderate is 'usually fails', and hard is 'often impossible'

If you subtract 5 from the dc, getting a dc 17, that means your character, at +12, built for theivery, will succeed on his rolls on a 5 or higher. 75% of the time, for a moderate challenge to be solved by someone who is an expert at it. An easy DC, 13, will be nearly trivial. A hard DC, 21, means you succeed about half the time. I think that seems a lot more in line with what you would expect.

 

[Byronic]

There is an easy solution for this. Let the other characters assist in disarming the traps. Four people can help you at the same time and each one that gets a 10+ on their roll (assuming an average Dex bonus of 1 this means they have to throw a 7 or higher) will give you a +2 bonus for disarming.

Of course this might have to wait until the room is free of other monsters.