-
The VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
D&D 5E Treantmonk's Guide to Everything Xanathar
- Thread starter Treantmonklvl20
- Start date
SpoCk0nd0pe
First Post
The example I was referring to was the one in Post#121.
In theory, I think to make optimal use of a Hexblade dip is to try to capitalise on Hexblade's Curse's increased crit range as much as possible. So extra dice is the way to go imho. Paladin and Sorcerer both provide those dice (my example looked at a Paladin).
In your level 9 example you could do Hexblade 1, Paladin (Oath of Vengeance) 5, Sorcerer (Dragon) 3. Stat array would be 10/14/15/8/10/18 (variant human). Your feats would be Warcaster and +2 Cha. AC would be 18 with a breastplate and a shield. With Hexblade's Curse and Vow of Emnity your crit chance would be 34% per round (2 attacks). Those crits do 6d8+6 damage with a level 1 spell slot smite.
At level 11, you could spend two combat rounds with quickened Greenflame blade. You have a 54% chance to crit in those two rounds dealing 10d8+7 to a first target and 4d8+5 to a second target. Sick!
Sure, this is mostly short rest stuff and not sustainable through multiple fights. But being able to pack such a ridiculous punch in tight situations is very good. It's not like such a class can't do a myriad of other things (you are still a caster) and can tank very well too.
It sounds like cool spell, but the implementation, like its mechanical predecessor Witch Bolt, is really weak sauce. You're spending a valuable fifth level spell slot to hit someone within range with mediocre (for the level) damage and a negligible amount of healing for yourself (if they fail the save). This generally means that you want the spell to last as long as possible to "get your money's worth out of it", so to speak, with more damage and healing each round. The problem is that this costs not only your concentration, but your action as well; in addition to the fact that the target can move out of range or behind full cover. One or two of these restrictions might be okay for some circumstances, but IME, this is rarely, if ever, worth it except as a flavorful torture method on a helpless opponent/sacrifice by the big bad. I mean, if you need the healing that badly and don't have a cleric/druid/paladin/bard/First Aid, I guess. But unless you are fighting mooks, this seems like a delay tactic at best, and you would be better served by a "Get out of Dodge" type of spell.
Last edited:
Assuming the first 10 in the array is Strength, this is not a valid array for what you are trying to do. The Paladin multiclass requires a minimum 13 Strength. You would need to swap out the points in Dexterity (or CON) and put them into Strength.
Yeah I know but going Hexblade 11/Fighter 5/Hexblade 12/Fighter 6-8 was a bit too clunky for me.
Treantmonklvl20
Explorer
More synergy with Hexblade and Battlemaster? I did not see that coming.
It is possible you haven't read the College of Blades option for Bards, but I should point out now that a Battlemaster's Maneuvers and College of Blades flourishes are REALLY similar.
- both add a die to damage
- in both cases, the die type increases with level, capping at a d12
- both add a secondary effect
- neither require bonus actions
- neither require your reaction (normally, both have exceptions)
- they have a similar number of uses
- both are recovered after a short rest (once Bard level 5 is reached)
Here's where they are different: Many of the battlemaster abilities provide a saving throw that relies on a DC based on Dex or Str - not Cha. Though you can choose a number of options that aren't saving throw based.
In other words, I'm not really seeing the synergy that the Battlemaster brings that the College of Blades does not.
I do however see synergy that CoB brings that Battlemaster does not. Namely, full casting based on Cha.
You're right in that they're similar but to me fighter is better for the following reasons above Bard, especially as you'll be in melee more often as a Hexblade usually.
1- More HP
2- Action Surge
3- The expanded fighting style options since duelist and TWF aren't very useful for most melee Hexblades who are likely to go GWF
4- Extra Attack one level early.
5- The possibility for a third extra attack if you go fighter heavy
6- The Battlemaster abilities recharge on a short rest, whereas the inspiration dice recharge on a long rest, so while the bardic flourishes are similar, you are much more limited in their actual use.
The DCs on Battlemaster will be lower yes, due to focusing on a secondary stat for you, but the fact you can use them more often throughout the day in addition to the other benefits makes up for it.
However, as you said yourself, you can easily choose items without DCs such as Riposte and Precision Attack, and even those like Trip Attack only have a DC 2 or 3 less than normal. While that can be a big deal, you'll still hit fairly often as your proficiency bonus improves.
Of course, you could also try the best of both worlds, and go Battlemaster/Blade/Hexblade...
Also in my build you only really go to level 8 in the bard/fighter class, since you want level 12 for that extra Cha to damage in, so bardic spellcasting isn't as useful.
1- More HP
2- Action Surge
3- The expanded fighting style options since duelist and TWF aren't very useful for most melee Hexblades who are likely to go GWF
4- Extra Attack one level early.
5- The possibility for a third extra attack if you go fighter heavy
6- The Battlemaster abilities recharge on a short rest, whereas the inspiration dice recharge on a long rest, so while the bardic flourishes are similar, you are much more limited in their actual use.
The DCs on Battlemaster will be lower yes, due to focusing on a secondary stat for you, but the fact you can use them more often throughout the day in addition to the other benefits makes up for it.
However, as you said yourself, you can easily choose items without DCs such as Riposte and Precision Attack, and even those like Trip Attack only have a DC 2 or 3 less than normal. While that can be a big deal, you'll still hit fairly often as your proficiency bonus improves.
Of course, you could also try the best of both worlds, and go Battlemaster/Blade/Hexblade...
Also in my build you only really go to level 8 in the bard/fighter class, since you want level 12 for that extra Cha to damage in, so bardic spellcasting isn't as useful.
Last edited:
Treantmonklvl20
Explorer
Got it.
I have to disagree, but it's subjective. Seems to me basing a build around a 1/day ability that increases crit from 19-20 is really narrow. Moreso when the "sweet spot" of having advantage (through vow of enmity) and the increased crit range (through Hexblade curse) cannot even be set up on round 1 (since both require a bonus action).
Regardless, of whether it's worth it or not, this ends up being a very specialized build. Really good at doing damage after round 2 of one battle per day. The rest of the time, it's fine, but not really special.
Couldn't you achieve something similar with a champion/paladin without needing the 2 round set up? Like even Champion 4/Paladin 5? Then you would have your improved crit range all the time. You could go strength or dex as primary stat instead of Cha. The Cha is kind of pointless anyways when you are using up many of your spell slots on smites. You could still throw in Sorcerer for those extra slots. I think this would at least be a more comparable build to Hexblade/Paladin/Sorcerer in terms of what it does.
Either way, we are looking at 2 very different builds. The build I recommended is a build of versatility. Fight in melee nearly as well as a dedicated melee build. Fire arrows nearly as well as a dedicated archer. Cast spells nearly as well as a dedicated caster. Skill proficiencies nearly as broad as a dedicated skill monkey.
Hi,
One level of Hexblade:
The biggest thing this offers is leveraging Cha for weapon attack. A character that already plans on Dex or Str 16+ gets much less out of this. A character that plans to do something other than attack with weapons also gets much less out of this.
The second biggest thing this offers is medium armor plus shields, something that some otherwise great subclasses that like Cha don't get. A character that already has access to this benefits less from a level of Hexblade.
So I see some bards, some sorcerers and maybe some paladins wanting a dip. It's good, but the kind of good that finally makes workable a concept the rules obviously have been trying to support. A melee bard or sorcerer can now be effective. (Spiritual Guardians sounds nice, and makes a case for Divine Sorcerer 1/Hex1/DSX using a melee cantrip, perhaps twinned, perhaps with a spell.)
Moon Druids: Most of the game, they are sub-par. Astounding at level 2, and then a fade into being irrelevant at melee and being the least of the full-casters, with a boost at levels 10, 18 and 20. Yay? Most games *do* feature access to good magic items, which other characters can stack with their signature abilities. Moon Druids, not so much. The awesomeness of levels 2&20 seem to overshadow this mostly underpowered and imo poorly designed class.
Diviners: They are wizards who get something shiny, so of course they are good! Two uses that must be allocated before dice are rolled is hardly OP, but definitely fun. Maybe they're OF, and that cannot be allowed.
Anyway,
Ken
One level of Hexblade:
The biggest thing this offers is leveraging Cha for weapon attack. A character that already plans on Dex or Str 16+ gets much less out of this. A character that plans to do something other than attack with weapons also gets much less out of this.
The second biggest thing this offers is medium armor plus shields, something that some otherwise great subclasses that like Cha don't get. A character that already has access to this benefits less from a level of Hexblade.
So I see some bards, some sorcerers and maybe some paladins wanting a dip. It's good, but the kind of good that finally makes workable a concept the rules obviously have been trying to support. A melee bard or sorcerer can now be effective. (Spiritual Guardians sounds nice, and makes a case for Divine Sorcerer 1/Hex1/DSX using a melee cantrip, perhaps twinned, perhaps with a spell.)
Moon Druids: Most of the game, they are sub-par. Astounding at level 2, and then a fade into being irrelevant at melee and being the least of the full-casters, with a boost at levels 10, 18 and 20. Yay? Most games *do* feature access to good magic items, which other characters can stack with their signature abilities. Moon Druids, not so much. The awesomeness of levels 2&20 seem to overshadow this mostly underpowered and imo poorly designed class.
Diviners: They are wizards who get something shiny, so of course they are good! Two uses that must be allocated before dice are rolled is hardly OP, but definitely fun. Maybe they're OF, and that cannot be allowed.
Anyway,
Ken
Would twin spell apply to this spell?
Last edited:
Similar Threads
