Trip and Stay down

[Greybar]

query from one of my players:

Bob trips Joe. Joe is now prone and attempts to get up, thus invoking an AoO. Bob takes this opportunity to trip Joe again.

While Joe is getting up is it prone (+4 to hit) or not?

If he is prone then how can Bob trip him?

Heres my answer, but I'm interested in other opinions as well.

The "take your AoO to keep him down" manuever sounds good in that it reflects the scenario well. I think I would not give you the +4 though - my gut feel is that it is easier to hit a prone person than it is to keep them from getting up. Looking over the 3.5 SRD doesn't seem to speak to that.
A note: tumbling to a standing position could avoid the AoO (though that isn't listed in the SRD... was that in Sword'n'Fist?).

I would add that I have heard that the AoO has been interpreted in the past as only allowing a normal strike attack, not a trip/sunder/etc manuever. However, this has been clarified in 3.5: "These attack forms substitute for a melee attack, not an action. As melee attacks, they can be used once in an attack or
charge action, one or more times in a full attack action, or even as an attack of opportunity." So yes, you could trip to keep someone down.

john

 

[Enkhidu]

In D&D, you are either prone or standing. I'd say that until you finish your action (standing up), you cannot be tripped (as you are already prone).

 

[Vurt]

The flip side to that interpretation is that you would never be able to trip someone getting up off of the ground, which flies in the face of common sense.

As I read it, there's no -4 penalty to AC while getting up as the target is not prone, which the glossary on the 3.5 PHB p.311 simply reads as "Lying on the ground".

Taking a move equivalent to stand up from prone provokes an AOO. The AOO interrupts the getting up process, and can potentially send the poor mark back to the ground. The fact that the AOO is resolved before the target getting up doesn't send you back in time to before the attempt is made.

Yes, that makes trip a remarkably effective combat option. Maybe now folks will start making more use of it. And if they start getting dizzy spells because they keep getting knocked down like mad, IMHO they can suck it up and crawl or tumble to the attacker, or indeed out of the attacker's reach.

-- Vurt

 

[Camarath]

As I read it, there's no -4 penalty to AC while getting up as the target is not prone, which the glossary on the 3.5 PHB p.311 simply reads as "Lying on the ground".

Taking a move equivalent to stand up from prone provokes an AOO. The AOO interrupts the getting up process, and can potentially send the poor mark back to the ground. The fact that the AOO is resolved before the target getting up doesn't send you back in time to before the attempt is made.

The AoO interrupts but may not stop the action. Either the character is counted as prone or his counted as not-prone (standing). Since regaining your feet is the result of the Stand Up action and the AoO occurs before the completion of the action. I think that you can not be tripped wile Standing Up since you should be counted as prone (not standing). What I think you are saying that during the Stand Up action you are not prone and not yet fully standing. I do not think there is a distinction between semi-standing and standing states in the rules. The only two way I see for a character Standing Up to be trippable via the AoO is if either the AoO happen after the character regained his feet (AoO after the action) or the character regained his feet at the begining of the action rather than the end (changing the order of events).

 

[Vurt]

The AoO interrupts but may not stop the action.

Why not? A trip attack can stop a charge. An AOO can stop a tumbler from trying to move through your square. Why can't a trip attack stop someone from trying to stand up?

Either the character is counted as prone or his counted as not-prone (standing).

As far as I've read, you can either be prone or not. But where prone is very clearly spelled out, not-prone isn't. By the same token, however, not-prone isn't necessarily defined as standing. I can be not-prone on my hands and knees, which is definitely trippable. (See the rules regarding tripping animals.)

What I think you are saying that during the Stand Up action you are not prone and not yet fully standing. I do not think there is a distinction between semi-standing and standing states in the rules.

Correct, there does not appear to be a distinction between semi-standing and standing in the rules, as far as I can see. But by the same token, where does it claim you have to be standing to be trippable? Heck, does it say you can't trip a prone opponent?

Clearly tripping someone already prone is unrealistic. But so is having a quantum state where you are either prone or standing with nothing in between.

-- Vurt

 

[Croaker]

Since standing is only a Move action, they can always try to get up again once the AoO has been resolved, so all the Trip really does is deny them the opportunity to attack and/or move that round.

 

[Particle_Man]

Actually, if the tripper has combat reflexes, and a DEX of at least 12, he could trip the person trying to get up twice (once as an Aoo on the getting up as a move action, once as an Aoo on the getting up as a standard action as move action).

Furthermore, if the tripper has improved trip and combat reflexes (and a dex of at least 12), he can trip attack, attack for damage, trip attack, and attack for damage, if the trippee tries to get up twice in a round. Assuming the trips are successful, the net result is a prone opponent that did nothing on its turn except get beat up. Then, on the tripper's turn, the tripper can lay waste with a full attack on the prone opponent.

Pretty sick, when you think about it.

 

[Greybar]

Particle Man: this is pretty much what my player is looking to do. And more power to him, but here are some defenses:

* I would allow a Tumble check to get to a stand without an AoO. Maybe let the Tumble check result be the AC against the AoO? Or just a flat test at DC20? I though this was in Sword'n'Fist but I couldn't find it.

* Crawl/roll out of threatened hex, then stand up. Would crawling 5ft away from your opponent open up to an AoO?

john

 

[Camarath]

Why not? A trip attack can stop a charge. An AOO can stop a tumbler from trying to move through your square. Why can't a trip attack stop someone from trying to stand up?

In this case being tripped changes you from normal standing to prone this prevents your normal movement because of the properties of being prone thus ending your action. Unless an AoO makes it so that it is impossible to complete your action you may complete it.

As far as I've read, you can either be prone or not. But where prone is very clearly spelled out, not-prone isn't. By the same token, however, not-prone isn't necessarily defined as standing. I can be not-prone on my hands and knees, which is definitely trippable. (See the rules regarding tripping animals

Correct, there does not appear to be a distinction between semi-standing and standing in the rules, as far as I can see. But by the same token, where does it claim you have to be standing to be trippable? Heck, does it say you can't trip a prone opponent?.)

If there is no distinction in the rules, I do not see how you can interpret the rules using such a distinction. Not being pone is what the Stand Up action accomplishes not granting you a state of standing. Standing is the normal state of not being prone it is not covered in the rule because it is the base state. A prone opponent may still be trippable but would suffer no addition penalties if tripped since they are already prone. Since a character does not stop being prone untill the end of the action that ends that condition they would still be prone wile preforming that action. How does triping make the action of rising from prone impossible since you can still rise from prone wile prone and you would be prone wile preforming the action (i.e. during the attack) anyway.

Clearly tripping someone already prone is unrealistic. But so is having a quantum state where you are either prone or standing with nothing in between.

-- Vurt

Many thing about the D&D combat system are unrealistic. It is an abstract representation altered for playability and game balance.

 

[Vurt]

OK, Camarath, you have me quite confused. If you don't mind, I'm going to try and reiterate your argument, and try and clarify as I see it. Please tell me if I haven't got it right.


A combatant, Tripper, and his opponent Unlucky square off.

On his action, Tripper successfully trips Unlucky. Unlucky is now prone within Tripper's threatened space.

On Unlucky's action, he stands up from prone. This draws an AOO from Tripper. You mean to say that Tripper cannot attempt to trip Unlucky with his AOO? Why not?

What I understand you saying is that Unlucky is prone until he has successfully completed the "standing up from prone" maneuver, but being prone has no bearing on whether a trip attempt can be made on him.

A prone opponent may still be trippable but would suffer no addition penalties if tripped since they are already prone.

Also, as I understand it, you are saying that poor Unlucky suffers the penalties for being prone until such a point as he can "stand up from prone", since standing is the natural (and hence, unpenalized) state.

But I would counter that being prone is clearly defined in the glossary of the 3.5 PHB as "Lying on the ground". If you are not lying on the ground, then, you are not prone, and hence do not suffer the penalties of that state. If one is performing the "standing up from prone" move-equivalent action, then one is clearly not "lying on the ground" and is therefore not prone.


What am I missing?

-- Vurt