Tropes that need to die

[Raven Crowking]

You are aware, I hope, that graveyards came into existence in a world in which the undead were believed to exist until very recently, and in some places are still believed to exist?

That the purpose of proper burial is (in part, and the earlier you go, the moreso) to limit the occurance of undead?

That destroying corpses does not eliminate the problem? It just, in a D&D world, means a lot of noncorporeal undead (you know, the generally more dangerous kind) exist, and that they are not happy with you?

Graveyards make perfect sense.


RC

 

[JacktheRabbit]

You are aware, I hope, that graveyards came into existence in a world in which the undead were believed to exist until very recently, and in some places are still believed to exist?

That the purpose of proper burial is (in part, and the earlier you go, the moreso) to limit the occurance of undead?

That destroying corpses does not eliminate the problem? It just, in a D&D world, means a lot of noncorporeal undead (you know, the generally more dangerous kind) exist, and that they are not happy with you?

Graveyards make perfect sense.


RC

Yes I am fully aware. I am also fully aware that undead do NOT actually exist so those who used graveyards to keep the dead from rising felt that their actions were 100% sucessful.

Exactly how does this benefit the discussion?

There are no zombies in our world. So whatever actions were taken to "stop" the dead from rising are of course going to succeed.

That is like saying that since I lock my doors every night to keep Hitler from stealing my cheese I must be doing the right thing. Of course the fact that Hitler is dead and thus cannot steal my cheese. That is just a minor technicality.

Oh and graveyards came about as forced action by the Catholic Church. IT was part of a propoganda/fear campaign to force the people of Europe further under the church's thumb. They told horror stories about all the terrible things that happened if bodies were not buried on hallowed ground next to a church. Of course the sticker was the fact that your family could only be buried safely if you were a good christian, etc etc. How very convenient of the church.

 

[olshanski]

Oh and graveyards came about as forced action by the Catholic Church. IT was part of a propoganda/fear campaign to force the people of Europe further under the church's thumb. They told horror stories about all the terrible things that happened if bodies were not buried on hallowed ground next to a church. Of course the sticker was the fact that your family could only be buried safely if you were a good christian, etc etc. How very convenient of the church.

I know my Jewish ancestors would be apalled, as its been kind of a family tradition not to be buried in christian cemetaries. I'd wager that humans have practiced burial since prehistoric times.

Really, I don't know why you are so crazy about banishing cemetaries. They make as much sense in a D&D world as many of the other methods of disposing of corpses... In real life you've got burial at sea, funeral pyres, tombs, burial mounds, cemetaries, mausoleums, cremation and spreading ashes in a familiar environment, excarnation....

A very important part of playing a roleplaying game is to set up a scene familiar enough to encourage immersion. In real life, we know that cemetaries are supposed to be "spooky", even though we may not believe in ghosts or undead. Haunted Houses often feature gravestonesand whatnot. For many players and DMs, it is fun to use familiar environments and craft our D&D scenarios around what we are familiar with.

Seriously, if you want to invoke everything D&D related and recreate a world based on D&D physics and technology, you are going to have a very crazy world, I'd argue that such world would be so alien as to be unplayable.

 

[Raven Crowking]

LOL

Gravesites have existed for far longer than the Catholic Church, and the fear of the dead rising if not properly buried probably goes back farther than recorded history. Neolithic burials have been found with the dead bound and buried with grave goods.

Undead do not exist because of graveyards; they exist when proper burial is either not performed, or when it fails. Remove the possibility of proper burial, and you dramatically increase the number of undead.

That is, whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, the folklore that D&D emulates, and the existence of graveyards is perfectly logical within that framework. That you are either unwilling or unable to accept that framework doesn't make it illogical.

(BTW, historically, people did not actually believe that their actions were 100% sucessful. And when I say "historically", I mean at least as late as the 18th Century in Europe, and to modern times in some parts of the world.

Let me quote from wikipedia:

During the 18th century, there was a frenzy of vampire sightings in Eastern Europe, with frequent stakings and grave diggings to identify and kill the potential revenants; even government officials engaged in the hunting and staking of vampires. Despite being called the Age of Enlightenment, during which most folkloric legends were quelled, the belief in vampires increased dramatically, resulting in a mass hysteria throughout most of Europe. The panic began with an outbreak of alleged vampire attacks in East Prussia in 1721 and in the Habsburg Monarchy from 1725 to 1734, which spread to other localities. Two famous vampire cases, the first to be officially recorded, involved the corpses of Peter Plogojowitz and Arnold Paole from Serbia. Plogojowitz was reported to have died at the age of 62, but allegedly returned after his death asking his son for food. When the son refused, he was found dead the following day. Plogojowitz supposedly returned and attacked some neighbours who died from loss of blood. In the second case, Paole, an ex-soldier turned farmer who allegedly was attacked by a vampire years before, died while haying. After his death, people began to die in the surrounding area and it was widely believed that Paole had returned to prey on the neighbours. Another famous Serbian legend involving vampires concentrates around a certain Sava Savanović living in a watermill and killing and drinking blood from millers. The character was later used in a story written by Serbian writer Milovan Glišić and in the Serbian 1973 horror film Leptirica inspired by the story.

The two incidents were well-documented: government officials examined the bodies, wrote case reports, and published books throughout Europe. The hysteria, commonly referred to as the "18th-Century Vampire Controversy", raged for a generation. The problem was exacerbated by rural epidemics of so-claimed vampire attacks, undoubtedly caused by the higher amount of superstition that was present in village communities, with locals digging up bodies and in some cases, staking them. Although many scholars reported during this period that vampires did not exist, and attributed reports to premature burial or rabies, superstitious belief increased. Dom Augustine Calmet, a well-respected French theologian and scholar, put together a comprehensive treatise in 1746, which was ambiguous concerning the existence of vampires. Calmet amassed reports of vampire incidents; numerous readers, including both a critical Voltaire and supportive demonologists, interpreted the treatise as claiming that vampires existed.

Vampire - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)


RC

 

[Amphimir Míriel]

1. Cemeteries

Better the occasional zombie or skeleton than a shadow, ghost or wraith...

2. The Court Wizard

Well, probably the "Jafar-style evil vizier" thing is a tad overused, but having one or two court wizards, a few court clerics of different religions, a court bard (jester) and a few court rogues makes for lively (and deadly!) political games.

 

[ProfessorCirno]

One that needs to die and thankfully has been dying - the idea that you need magic to do anything, or that not all characters are magical.

One or the other. That's how myth and fantasy work. Either you don't need magic to be fantastic (Beowulf ripping off Grendel's arm then diving into the sea and spending hours underwater searching for the lair, without ever once using a magic waterbreathing or strength item, without asking a local wizard for help) or we admit that everyone is somehow divine or magical (Greek mythology).

This idea that fighters have to be mundane and non-fantastic is such a D&D-ism, and it's the worst kind.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Yeah, 'cause a fantasy game shouldn't be able to emulate, say, Peregrin Took, or Conan, or Fafrd. That's just crazy talk to think that. Sheesh!

(Obviously, that a game should offer a choice that is mundane and non-fantastic is a violation of someone's onetruewayism!)

RC

 

[billd91]

You are talking about real world religions that are trying to justify tradition or a new set of rules. One cannot use real world logic when talking about fantasy worlds because in DnD the Gods really do tell you what they do and dont like.

Treading dangerous ground with that line of thought. There are people in this world who believe that their gods do, in fact, tell the people what they do and don't like.

 

[billd91]

This idea that fighters have to be mundane and non-fantastic is such a D&D-ism, and it's the worst kind.

Depends on your definition of fantastic. Frankly, I think fighters in D&D can perform some pretty fantastic feats even if I think they shouldn't be able to jump down 200 foot cliffs and walk away. Plus there's plenty of literature that includes fighter-types doing relatively mundane and non-fantastic things all the time. It's not a D&Dism at all.

 

[Leatherhead]

1. Cemeteries - OK, so fighting zombies is bad (skeletons are cool though). But wait one moment, imagine that instead of zombies you have to fight undead ash monsters because all the bodies are burned and necromancy still exists. And of course this doesn't stop animal zombies from being made, which can be even more dangerous than human zombies. Logicaly, cemeteries are just less risky than the alternatives.


2. The Court Wizard - Most castles have a priest on the grounds, or in the local area anyway. The Wizard there is more about messing other people up than it is about protecting yourself. Turning your enemies into frogs is quite the way to make a statement.


3. The Party A$$hole - Yeah, this needs to go away. Especially that one guy who plays a rogue and steals from the rest of the party under the pretence of roleplaying.

What illogical items exist in your campaign or in most campaigns that you have played in?

"It's magic, I don't have to explain it": Seriously, take cultural anthropology class or something. Magic has rules and a form of logic behind it, even if you don't agree with said logic and the rules seem completely arbitrary.

The DMPC: Do I really need to explain this one? The PCs are the protagonists, having NPCs hang around and do significant things (especially combat or puzzle solving) trivializes them. Having a king to do the mundane tasks of running a kingdom, and sending the PC's out on quests because he commands them is fine. But having said king go out and directly solve the problems that the PC's are supposed to be engaged in, is not.