True 20: using hit points?

[Akrasia]

It looks likely that I will be running a True20 session in the near future.

One thing that I am curious about is how difficult it would be to replace the 'damage save' system with bog-standard D&D-style hit points?

I'll use the 'damage save' system for my playtest session, since I'm curious to see how it works in practice. But I suspect that, for the kind of campaign I envision for True20 (assuming that the players like the playtest well enough to continue), standard hit points may be preferable. I plan to run a 'swords and sorcery' type of game (D&D-ish in some respects).

I like most of the changes True20 makes to d20/3e fantasy. The one exception is the wealth system (which is easily replaced). The one I'm uncertain about is the 'damage save' system.

Thanks!

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I think the Mutants & Masterminds 'Masterminds Manual' (their optional DMG) has a comprehensive damage save to hp conversion guide, but I don't have it.

I, too, prefer hp to the damage save, and would like to know how people are doing this in their campaigns.

IMX, the objection to hp is almost always on the basis of 'realism,' not on the basis of gameplay, which makes it a meaningless objection to me.

 

[TableSage]

It really depends upon what you wish to get out of the HP type system. But this is what I tried for a short while and it seemed to work okay (I do prefer the RAW though):

Each Role gets a large number of HP at 1st level and then a bonus equal to the Role's Combat Bonus at each additional level.

Warrior - 20 + CB
Expert - 15 + CB
Adept - 10 + CB

The Toughness save is rolled as normal and the difference is the amount of HP taken, assuming that the damage is higher than the Toughness save. I also stated that a character is considered Shaken once HP falls below half.

And HP can always be raised (or even rolled) per level if one wanted a more "heroic" game. Or lowered for a grim setting. Note that I did not include Constitution in HP because it is already included in the Toughness save.

Some good points were that instant death and the death spiral was lessened and my players liked that it was more familiar. However, the Stunned condition is eliminated and so Sneak Attacks and such are a little more difficult to perform. Plus some conversions are necessary for things such as the Cure power and certain uses of Conviction.

 

[ValhallaGH]

IMX, the objection to hp is almost always on the basis of 'realism,' not on the basis of gameplay, which makes it a meaningless objection to me.

Which is a true and fair oppinion. However, when the complaint is that an ambush or hostage situation is in no way a meaningful threat to the characters, I'm willing to grant that Toughness has a large advantage over hp.

Hit points are much simpler than Toughness; they are also easier to balance due to mathematical formulas that make attack and damage fairly predictable.

Akraisa, make sure that everyone understands the value of defense during the playtest. Defensive Stance, Defensive Attack feat, and the Total Defense option are all wonderful ways to boost defense scores, there by avoiding having to make Toughness saves.
True20 is defensively oriented, which is exactly the opposite of all other d20 games. The reason is the lack of "I'm not dead yet" points to absorb successful attacks; any hit, even one that does 0 damage, can leave the character disabled or dying.

 

[Akrasia]

... Akraisa, make sure that everyone understands the value of defense during the playtest. Defensive Stance, Defensive Attack feat, and the Total Defense option are all wonderful ways to boost defense scores, there by avoiding having to make Toughness saves.
True20 is defensively oriented, which is exactly the opposite of all other d20 games. The reason is the lack of "I'm not dead yet" points to absorb successful attacks; any hit, even one that does 0 damage, can leave the character disabled or dying.

That's useful advice. Thanks.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

Which is a true and fair oppinion. However, when the complaint is that an ambush or hostage situation is in no way a meaningful threat to the characters, I'm willing to grant that Toughness has a large advantage over hp.

Not if you encounters (when hit points apply) from out-of-encounter (when hit points don't apply) - such as being ambushed or held hostage.

Basically, this is how I handle it:

In 'encounters,' characters have hp, which represent a variety of different things. Removing their hp removes them from the encounter, although they can be returned to it by (relatively low-level compared to normal D&D) magic or items.

Out of 'encounters,' lethality is in the extreme. Think of it as all attacks being coup de grace. Worse, death out of encounter is Plot Death - it is real and permanent, and there's no real way to fix it (except, perhaps, a ritual or quest spell).

This split is console RPG inspired and designed to make combat fun and enjoyable for everyone, and death, when it occurs, meaningful and emotional.

 

[Turanil]

One thing that I am curious about is how difficult it would be to replace the 'damage save' system with bog-standard D&D-style hit points?

I think it would require a lot of work where various damaging spells, feats, weapons, etc. are concerned. Maybe it would be simpler to use the three D&D generic classes of Unearthed Arcana...

 

[Akrasia]

I think it would require a lot of work where various damaging spells, feats, weapons, etc. are concerned. Maybe it would be simpler to use the three D&D generic classes of Unearthed Arcana...

Well, I definitely don't want to use the 3e magic system -- this is one of my main reasons for wanting to try True20.

And using the generic classes from UA essentially amounts to using 3.5 rules (with some changes).

If it would be that much work to use hit points for True20, then I'll simply bite the bullet and stick with the damage save ('bite the bullet', that is, if our group doesn't care for the system; perhaps we will really like it despite my reservations).

 

[Rydac]

Akrasia,
I don't recall off the top of my head how it is handled but the Masterminds Manual does have details on a hit point option...while this is for Mutanta and Masterminds it might prove a workable option given they're essentially the same combat system.

I'll bring the manual to the session you are running and you can peruse it for possible future use.

 

[Ruland]

Akrasia, you really should give the damage save system a fair try. It really promotes intelligent game play in combat. And I don't think that there are playability issues with it. Make sure that the players understand and use certain defence and toughness boosting feats, and more important, that they use their Conviction points sparsely in order to be able to stabilize their characters in a dying condition ...

For most True20 fans who post an Green Ronin's forum the damage save is one of the most precious treasures of this system.