True 20 - Who here has played it, and what was your experience?

[Hjorimir]

What was that about not attacking the person again?

Sorry, but it was a direct answer to your very direct question. You may feel that if you hide your attacks behind veiled statements (e.g. One might ask what the only difference is...) nobody will call you on it, but you're not fooling anybody here, least of all me.

You want to talk about the topic, fine, but I'd ask you to adopt a new attitude.

 

[The_Gut]

Even though this has devolved (as most long running threads tend to do) into a not very interesting minor flame war, I'm going to toss in a pertinant piece.

Many independant RPG's are at present exploring systems which increase player control and participation, while decreasing GM power. (They also tend to be "lets pretend" type things, with very light stats). I think its important to give some of these a try, simply to broaden one's gaming horizons.

Some samples (none of which I've played - yet) are Prime Time adventures, Polaris, THE SHAB AL-HIRI ROACH, Mountain Witch, and others. We live in an interesting time, in terms of role playing game experimentation. Both the Roach, and Polaris don't even have game masters.

 

[Hjorimir]

Even though this has devolved (as most long running threads tend to do) into a not very interesting minor flame war, I'm going to toss in a pertinant piece.

Many independant RPG's are at present exploring systems which increase player control and participation, while decreasing GM power. (They also tend to be "lets pretend" type things, with very light stats). I think its important to give some of these a try, simply to broaden one's gaming horizons.

Some samples (none of which I've played - yet) are Prime Time adventures, Polaris, THE SHAB AL-HIRI ROACH, Mountain Witch, and others. We live in an interesting time, in terms of role playing game experimentation. Both the Roach, and Polaris don't even have game masters.

Wow, no GM at all? Now that is interesting. Can you expand upon that design? Who initiates events? Or are there no events to speak of outside what the PC instigate?

 

[Jim Hague]

No, in practice it doesn't. That may be how it seems to the person doing so, but its not how it seems to someone at the other end. If you have a group of roleplayers who all feel that they're doing what they should with their characters, and some of them recieve metagame benefits for doing so, and others don't, I don't doubt for a moment that the latters will percieve themselves as being punished for their play. Any argument otherwise is, frankly, semantic, and has little to do with how its actually recieved or the practical effect.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree, then - I assume that a GM is going to play fair with their players, and not play favorites. Doing so is a serious failure on the GM's part, and that's something that no amount of rules is going to fix, sadly. There are games like Burning Wheel that claim to level this, but I haven't seen it work in the face of an unfair GM.

Can you explain what you mean about "reward prior to action" here? I'm not getting it I'm afraid.

Essentially, the player declares something cool and in-character, and the reward is given before they perform the action...thus encouraging such actions in the future. It also places the onus of performing the actions on the player, and does a lot to remove the opportunity for favoritism from the GM. It's not a perfect patch, but it levels the field a lot IME in games with resource rewards.

I suspect that only helps in the simple and easily identified cases; otherwise it just turns on whether the GM finds the characterization for the reason for the action credible or not, something that otherwise would be a non-issue in the scene.

Again, it's more a social than a rules issue, and in almost all cases it'll either be an unsolvable problem or something avoided by a strong social contract.

 

[iwatt]

Many independant RPG's are at present exploring systems which increase player control and participation, while decreasing GM power. (They also tend to be "lets pretend" type things, with very light stats). I think its important to give some of these a try, simply to broaden one's gaming horizons.

Well, in this vein, True20 Caliphate Nights has the framing mechanic, that hands over a lot of narrative control to the player. I'm not familiar with the other systems you mentioned, maybe you could clarify or point me towards some links?

On a side note, there is an ignore function in these messageboards for a reason.

 

[The_Gut]

Indie games

the Shab al-Hiri Roach http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12312.phtml

Basically, its a roleplaying session, not campaign. This is kind of a party game rpg setup. I haven't played it yet, or read the rules even. I'm registered for a game of this at Dragoncon this year. The above review, by the way, is quite good.

Prime Time adventures http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12009.phtml

Another one I'm scheduled to try at Dragoncon. The players work together to roleplay a TV series, that they have designed. I'm iffier on this one than the Roach game (I don't watch a lot of TV, but I love the idea of telepathic soul eating roaches). Still, its suppose to have a lot of top notch GM advice on character arcs, pacing, etc, so I might get it.

Polaris http://www.rpg.net/reviews/archive/12/12354.phtml

Haven't tried, probably will never get to try. Its next on my "to buy" list. I'm interested in it because it deliberately sets out to invoke a certain mythical atmosphere, and its a tragedy. Your character is doomed to die, his civilization to be destroyed, and his story forgotten. So its all about how well he dies. I'm a sucker for tragedy, and its something you don't often get in RPG's (or books, or movies much either). The Have games, will travel podcast as a session of this game recorded, for download. I haven't yet had time to listen to it though.

I tend to agree with one reviewer, who says that he hasn't seen any of the indie rpgs that he would like to play for more than a few sessions. But, I can't help but think that parts of these can be pulled and incorporated into more mainstream rpgs. Like Caliphate nights has done with framing. Which, I would like to get Caliphate Nights, but not for the price that they want... (Thats a problem with most of the indie games above, as well, they are pricey.....)

Several other Indie games I've heard lots of good things about - Dogs in the Vinyard, Mountain Witch, My life with master (I own this last one, but I'm not through digesting it).

Interesting stuff. I wish I had more experience with it.

 

[Hjorimir]

Well, in this vein, True20 Caliphate Nights has the framing mechanic, that hands over a lot of narrative control to the player. I'm not familiar with the other systems you mentioned, maybe you could clarify or point me towards some links?

iwatt, have you used Framing in game yet? I've been considering the mechanic for my own game and would be interested in your experience.

Thanks!

 

[Hjorimir]

I tend to agree with one reviewer, who says that he hasn't seen any of the indie rpgs that he would like to play for more than a few sessions. But, I can't help but think that parts of these can be pulled and incorporated into more mainstream rpgs. Like Caliphate nights has done with framing. Which, I would like to get Caliphate Nights, but not for the price that they want... (Thats a problem with most of the indie games above, as well, they are pricey.....)

Just an fyi: The Caliphate Nights Framing mechanic is covered in True20's core rulebook (page 156 if you have the book or picked up the free pdf).

 

[iwatt]

iwatt, have you used Framing in game yet? I've been considering the mechanic for my own game and would be interested in your experience.

Thanks!

Sadly, I haven't. My players decided they wanted to play Victorian Horror this time around, so my Caliphate Nights pdf is collecting electronic dust. I've considered introducing it for my horror campign, but since this is the first time I'm running creepy horror (instead of gore), I'm not sure how it will affect the mood.

 

[iwatt]

I wonder how it'd work out if you allowed a character to dispense with their nature (virtue and vice) in order to increase their refresh rate for conviction from one point per day to two points per day? They'd be giving up the chance to obtain conviction in mid-adventure, but they would not have the issue you find with the mechanism.

I missed this amid the flamewar, but I really dig this idea. As I've mentioned before, some Natures come up more often than others*, IME, so this would maybe make up for that. Also, I'm not too generous with conviction rewards, so a static 2/day seems like a good number to me.


* It's easy for me to assign Conviction for somebody with the Brave Virtue or the Cold-Blooded Vice, but harder for somebody who is Thoughtful or Petty.