Trying to make a game harsh, care to input?

[malien]

So, I'm about to start my first d20 game in some time, and I've been really working hard on the 'feel' of the setting. See, I spend most of my online time trapped in these MUX and MUSHES that are all about RP, without dice or anything. It's all really freeform, and minimalist when it comes to magic and fantastic creatures.

While I obviously enjoy it, this makes a lot of things in a regular D&D campaign, to me, feel somewhat odd. Even cheesy, sometimes. Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not bashing good old D&D. It's what got me into the whole fantasy genre in general. And I play in a game that is more or less standard fare D&D. (Though, unfortunatley, it's on hiatus indefinately while our DM gets real life straightened out!)

Anyways, I've been leafing through various sources, and I've decided I want to go with a few variants to the standard system. First off, the Grim-n-Gritty rules are really neat. We tried out a few test battles, and my group likes them... so check. Also, I'm seriously pondering going with the minimalist three classes from Unearthed Arcana (Warrior, Rogue, Spellcaster) and leaving the real distinction between characters in the Prestige Classes we make for the setting.

(Oh, and since it occurs to me I should mention it, I'm going with the more or less standard medieval setting, unless something huge inspires me to change my mind.)

Magic is my real sticking point, though. Everything feels so over the top for me. I love the stories in which magic is more a forbidden force, something that wields such great power... but with risk. Terrible risk. It is a science, of sorts, but never a sure thing.

So, in conjunction with that, I've decided to muck with spellcasting. But, here is where my problems come in. I don't play /that/ much d20 to know for sure what is the best to do here. I'm figuring, at the least, you'll need to do a Spellcraft check to get off a spell. And, since Grim-n-Gritty already makes spells so vicious, you'll probably take subdual damage worth the level of the spell cast (translated into GnG's dot system) whether or not you successfully cast a spell. And, depending on how you do in the Spellcraft roll, you either do the spell flawlessly (thereby casting it as stated in the PHB, or whatever the source) or, at less effectiveness, or fail to cast it. And if you roll /really/ bad... well, then I pull out the Insanity rules from Unearthed Arcana (originally from CoC, I know!)...

Now, this isn't to penalize people who want to play a spellcaster in my game. But, really, the trade off is fair, I think. It's risky to cast spells. Risky to make magic items (another mechanic I need suggestions for!)... so, if you take the risk, you get to cast and do stuff most everyone else cannot. Spellcaster's aren't really nerfed because, well, if you /can/ cast that fireball, damn. It is going to /hurt/ whomever is unlucky enough to get hit in it.

I think.

So, any thoughts? Opinions, input, suggestions, hate mail, it's all welcome! I really want this to work, and there are more than a few bright minds on these boards, so here's to hoping!

-- Malien

 

[Quick Leaf]

Go to the Atlas games website and check out the 4th edition of Ars Magica for an excellent look at magic. The dangers of using magic, or Wizard's Twilight, is given decent attention. Cheers!

http://www.atlas-games.com/arsmagica/index.html

 

[Quick Leaf]

Okay, I've got more for you. This is a result of my and others attempts to convert Ars Magica to D20.
In Ars Magica (ARM) mages use a roll when casting spells. This roll is basically a d20 roll plus a casting bonus. It must exceed the difficulty number of the spell being attempted. Spells are designed using a point-based system that results in a difficulty number for casting that spell. There is no need to prepare spells; any spell can be cast at any time. There are both learned "formulaic" spells and spontaneous spells, with slightly different mechanics. Mages can attempt to cast any spell. Failures can have anything from no effect to extraordinarily dire consequences. Spell casting can result in fatigue, especially for poor casting rolls. In ARM mages almost always have an ability to resist magic. Casting can be modified, ad hoc, in terms of range, duration, target, gestures, and voicing. If you're interested in the write up I've done to date, I can get that too ya too. Cheers!

 

[CombatWombat51]

@Quick Leaf: Hey, I'm interested in that write up combatwombat51 at hotmail dot com if ya would

 

[malien]

Sure, I'd love to see what writeups you might have sitting around! Magic is the one place I am still searching for something suitable, so, that's great. Any ideas on divine magic? I'm leaning towards just changing the names, and using the same mechanic for divine and arcane spells...

... arcane spells tap into the power of reality, twist it, therefore you risk danger... divine spells channel the divine essence, something a mortal coil is not built to do...

... but if you have other ideas, or anyone does, I'd /love/ to hear them. Also, general suggestions on how to make the game all harsh and grim and such. Thanks!

My email is at mikulics @ hotmail.com. Without the spaces. Because, like, I see people put up their emails in odd ways, and it makes me think I should. Just to be cool.

 

[robberbaron]

Stepping slightly to the side of topic, in my game I explained to my players that magic has effects very similar to gravity (stay with me here, people!).
Have you ever seen a diagram of a gravity well? Take a rubber sheet and place a ball bearing in the centre. The bearing pulls the sheet down into a "well" and anything else on the sheet tends to get pulled down there as well.

Magic acts like the ball bearing on the rubber sheet of the universe.

So the more powerful the magic, the more attracting it is to everything else around. Monsters get a feeling and are more likely to bump into a magic using PC. If the magic is really strong, it can attract trouble from a long way away.

Sorry for the ramble, but I thought it might be relevant to the discussion.

 

[Ibram]

Buy Conan d20 from Mongosse publishing! Its got everything that you described.

 

[ARandomGod]

Okay, I've got more for you. This is a result of my and others attempts to convert Ars Magica to D20.
In Ars Magica (ARM) mages use a roll when casting spells. This roll is basically a d20 roll plus a casting bonus. It must exceed the difficulty number of the spell being attempted. Spells are designed using a point-based system that results in a difficulty number for casting that spell. There is no need to prepare spells; any spell can be cast at any time. There are both learned "formulaic" spells and spontaneous spells, with slightly different mechanics. Mages can attempt to cast any spell. Failures can have anything from no effect to extraordinarily dire consequences. Spell casting can result in fatigue, especially for poor casting rolls. In ARM mages almost always have an ability to resist magic. Casting can be modified, ad hoc, in terms of range, duration, target, gestures, and voicing. If you're interested in the write up I've done to date, I can get that too ya too. Cheers!

I'd be very interesting in a write up.
Sounds a lot like the old TORG system, which was/is my favorite spellcasting system ever.
ARandomGod@yahoo.com

 

[Quick Leaf]

I recently re-found a really good internet source for d20 Ars Magica by Erik Jordan. Check it out! I think he's done a superior job. I'll let you know when I get a working copy of my own adaptation done. Soon hopefully.
To really understand the system you need to check out Ars Magica, the Atlas site has a free 4th edition pdf for download. I think they're working on 5th ed now. Anyhow, here's Erik Jordan's site:

http://www.users.qwest.net/~jordanerik/Gaming/ArM/index.htm

Here's a couple of my ideas: The first mage stole the Divine Tongue from the gods, and that's essentially what mages do, they speak a divine language of verbs and nouns to alter reality. Not everyone has the "gift" for magic. Priests, on the other hand, disdain mages for being heretical. Priests, however, while often genuinely devoted to their gods, also seek to learn the True Names of various gods & divine beings to control them and even manipulate them to their own ends. (kind of a twist on the ancient egyptian lector-priest). One idea I had for priest magic involved the use of symbolic actions (a table you roll on, or a card you randomly draw) which was the demand the god had for the magic to work.
Ideas for symbolic actions are...
Donning the crown
Eating the scroll
Embalming the dead
Holding up the sky
Lighting a lamp
Looking into the mirror
Opening of the mouth
Prostration before the divine
Ritual purification
The Sacrifice
Swearing an oath
Trial by flame
Vision in the desert
Weighing of the heart
Wrestling with the angel

...in addition the success of priestly magic was directly related to the reason they were asking their deity for magic. How relevant is the request to the deity? For example, take Osiris (deity of underworld, rebirth, and civilization). Slightly relevant to him is protection from a hazard in the underworld. Moderately relevant is calling on a spirit of the underworld for renewed strength. Very relevant is learning of a gate to the underworld to help revive a lost civilization. This system assumes each deity has three major aspects to its profile.
Anywho, your thoughts?

 

[malien]

Quick Leaf, I'm really interested in that last idea of yours. The three aspects, tongue of the gods, etc. I've not exactly gotten all the thematic points of my game down yet, so I have lots of room to wriggle around and accomodate strange twists like this!

Of course, at the same time, I've been pondering a monotheistic church with the God as the overpower, and Saints and the like being the ones that actually hand out divine magic to the faithful.

But I like your idea as well. Care to expand on it? Lavish us all with examples? You seem to have a knack for this sort of thing. I'm intrigued. =)