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D&D General trying to make an alien-themed race but they keep turning into elves, help.

NotAYakk

Legend
The video game Stellaris provides a treasure trove of tropes. Only a few are elvish.

Mossy rocks: Your species is a bunch of rocks covered in moss. Their communication, when translated, is very slow; on the other hand, they consider other species communication also slow, because their languages are optimized for different things. An analogy might be, someone who is only able to type out arithmetic expressions having a discussion with someone who is only able to paint landscapes they can see. The arthmetic expressions make very poor landscape drawings, and the landscape drawings don't communicate basic arithmetic very efficiently.

They are Spirtualist. They consider human-style science to be something akin to a board game. I mean, it passes the time? But as far as they are concerned, it doesn't provide efficient ways at finding truth or beauty. Their technology is simply alien, and human science really has a problem understanding it.

I mean, study produces useful insights, but usually not how it works or replicates what it does. Like, humans studying how their ships move around might produce insights on how to make better holographic projectors or medical scanners or batteries. But no clue on how that "machine" actually moves a ship.

I say study it, because when asked about how their technology works, you get what appears to be an extremely long and complex philosophical and moral discussion which devolves into technical details that no human philospher has managed to decode. If you read serious philosophy you can easily see how this would happen; now imagine one where the important referents are obvious to the other party, and completely unknown to you.

They have similar problems when they try to understand human technology.

We aren't sure if the creatures are the rocks or the algae growing on the rocks. There is evidence they are both the rocks and the algae, and evidence they are not the algae, and other evidence they are not the rocks, and evidence that they are neither rocks nor algae.

They have managed to use some basic human-style technology and find it useful. For example, "segways" to move them around are considered quite useful and popular. Similarly, they have produced a few pieces of technology that humans find useful for everyday use; maybe a substance that both heals broken bones and removes muscle strain after exercise in seconds. Neither side really knows how this useful technology works.

(This was inspired by an alien species mentioned in an actual playthrough of stellaris; spirtualist rock people. I embellished.)
 

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Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
So a Mystical and Non-Hostile alien race that isn't elven in it's stylings and outlook.

So the first thing I'd do is take a look online for something "Out There" as an alien species styling, and I found this beautiful piece of art:

7ecae25beae081ac8ffc71ab0f546ab0.jpg


The original artist created five different alien species, here... But what if that were -one- species with five different genders, or castes, or body structures designed for different roles in society? Or perhaps four genders, and the bottom left corner is an alien mercenary species that is paid to protect these non-combatant peoples?

What sort of society would form around these four or five people? Are some a ruling caste while others are laborers? What sort of divisions of social roles and obligations do they have? Does color represent anything? Do the castes quarrel amongst themselves and have issues maintaining cohesion, leading to a society that is often on the edge of breaking apart?

Is their cadence of speech stoccatto and swift, slow and drawling, or somehow both, with slow and deliberate speech that is spoken sharpy with brief pauses between words that slows to a Shatnerian Crawl?

How did they evolve to have such violently different appearances? How do they conduct themselves?

What if, unlike elves, these guys weren't detached or capricious, but -were- lascivious? A whole species of aliens who are enlightened and delicate and gentle and randy or raunchy in their humor? I mean, like, even in court people make fart jokes while on the witness stand levels of raunchy playfulness. What if Puns are considered the most noble form of comedy and employed -constantly-?

What if they've got a half-orc lifespan (60-70 years. tops) but a -killer- education system that teaches them everything they need to know really fast?
would that not just be the dromites?
the concept of lascivious disturbs me?
Some of what you're running into is that...elves, in their archetypal form, were made to be alien. So if you're shooting for something being alien, you're probably gonna have some similarities to "elf" no matter what.

But if you'd like pointers on what to avoid to prevent an "alien" race from being too elf-like:

1. Elves have an emphasis on grace and magic. If your aliens are "ugly" or "brutish," and don't really do magic much, that will help.
2. Elves, despite being pulled out of their Tolkien context, still have shades of "relic of a better time" or "proud representatives of a lost/fallen world that was more magical and beautiful." So, having your new creation be either at the height of their power or still developing (that is, they aren't "fallen," they haven't climbed high enough to fall yet), that's a useful distinction.
3. Elves have a thing for physically beautiful things. Crystal spires, swooping lines, natural tree-homes, etc. Give your aliens an industrialized, scientific look, with concrete and steel, hard lines and right angles, etc. Make them look like the only people allowed to be architects are dispassionate engineers.
4. Realistically, Vulcans SHOULD look like Elves--but they don't. And the main reason, despite having the pointy ears, long lifespans, great strength, superior knowledge, etc. is that Vulcans are so big on logic, logic, logic. It distances them from the implicit hedonism (of high-elf-type elves) or primal-traditionalism (of wood-elf-type elves) that elves usually carry. Try to do something similar--making them hardcore militarists could help.
5. Finally...elves look like humans. They have humanoid body plans, two eyes, one nose, one mouth, two arms, etc. etc. Break that mold. Give your race extra eyes or fewer eyes, a flat face with nasal slits (like how the gith look), multiple mouths/voices or no mouth at all, tentacles or different numbers of limbs, etc. etc. The classic sci-fi way of making an alien look, y'know, alien.

As a sort of sub-point to the previous: elves are mammals. Making a reptile or insect would instantly push you away from feeling like an "elf" even if culturally the creatures behave a lot like elves, because humans are visual creatures and our judgments of other beings are often based on what they look like.
1 we got brutes for days and we got dex sneaky type nearly as much and neither are really my type I want caster ish so that is part of the problem.
2 was thinking about that and I agree here.
3but that sounds like a dwarf or gnome thing and I do not want to take that from them but the concrete could work.
4 has multiple points, one would not be sufficient as that would not distance them sufficiently so maybe two would be better? hardcore militarists are kinda an evil side thing would not something else be more fitting?
5 this was on my to-do list anyway but your point stands correct.
The video game Stellaris provides a treasure trove of tropes. Only a few are elvish.

Mossy rocks: Your species is a bunch of rocks covered in moss. Their communication, when translated, is very slow; on the other hand, they consider other species communication also slow, because their languages are optimized for different things. An analogy might be, someone who is only able to type out arithmetic expressions having a discussion with someone who is only able to paint landscapes they can see. The arthmetic expressions make very poor landscape drawings, and the landscape drawings don't communicate basic arithmetic very efficiently.

They are Spirtualist. They consider human-style science to be something akin to a board game. I mean, it passes the time? But as far as they are concerned, it doesn't provide efficient ways at finding truth or beauty. Their technology is simply alien, and human science really has a problem understanding it.

I mean, study produces useful insights, but usually not how it works or replicates what it does. Like, humans studying how their ships move around might produce insights on how to make better holographic projectors or medical scanners or batteries. But no clue on how that "machine" actually moves a ship.

I say study it, because when asked about how their technology works, you get what appears to be an extremely long and complex philosophical and moral discussion which devolves into technical details that no human philospher has managed to decode. If you read serious philosophy you can easily see how this would happen; now imagine one where the important referents are obvious to the other party, and completely unknown to you.

They have similar problems when they try to understand human technology.

We aren't sure if the creatures are the rocks or the algae growing on the rocks. There is evidence they are both the rocks and the algae, and evidence they are not the algae, and other evidence they are not the rocks, and evidence that they are neither rocks nor algae.

They have managed to use some basic human-style technology and find it useful. For example, "segways" to move them around are considered quite useful and popular. Similarly, they have produced a few pieces of technology that humans find useful for everyday use; maybe a substance that both heals broken bones and removes muscle strain after exercise in seconds. Neither side really knows how this useful technology works.

(This was inspired by an alien species mentioned in an actual playthrough of stellaris; spirtualist rock people. I embellished.)
there is the problem of to alien to play and I think this is it plus they lack a coolness to their design as I likely know exactly what portrait they use.
 

Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
imagine you are trying to make something original but you stumble into the same old worked ground endlessly you want something sufficiently different to see how things could be, it is the horror of trying to reinvent the wheel?
There is nothing new under the sun.

All artistic creations are reinventions of things that already exist − especially if the artist wants viewers that can appreciate them!

There is a reason for the saying: "Good artists borrow, but great artists steal."

In art, the most important goal is, creating expressions outside of oneself that resonate with the inside of oneself. It is like making the world around you, part of you. So the artist can feel at home among the works.

The way to do this, is to discover the differences between what you like more and what you like less.

Write the two lists. It is a good way to start.

Also helpful is creating a "vision board", where one collects images that resonate in some way. See what the overall impression is like.

In fact, when drawing from within in this way, you probably will innovate new things.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I keep trying to make a fantasy race and whenever I think about it too long it just dissolves in t a type of elf, which is fundamentally a problem as I am not an elf guy.
more exactly I am trying to make something vaguely space alien-themed and not an evil monster race so I keep remaking the idealised other that is the elf by accident, can someone tell me what the limits of elfdom are so I can succeed in my goal?
given I am trying to make one that is not a brute but mystical I keep running into this problem?
Not making elves is harder than it seems. Once I started with an idea for a race that was based upon nekomimi, but the furry ears didn't sit well with me, then I switched form cats to foxes and started to add the tropes we associate with foxes (cunning, tricksty, nature, supernatural...), then added more mysticism, and ended with something that was essentially elves but with a claw/talon attack from their fingernails, and not as long lived as usual. So, I just admitted defeat...
 

Pick a cool Sci Fi race like the Bajorans, Cardassians, Tellerites, Ferengi, Andorions, or Orions for example and ask yourself how would they adapt to a fantasy setting with wizards and clerics.

Then take their basic appearance and make a few changes.

Done.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
1 we got brutes for days and we got dex sneaky type nearly as much and neither are really my type I want caster ish so that is part of the problem.
2 was thinking about that and I agree here.
3but that sounds like a dwarf or gnome thing and I do not want to take that from them but the concrete could work.
4 has multiple points, one would not be sufficient as that would not distance them sufficiently so maybe two would be better? hardcore militarists are kinda an evil side thing would not something else be more fitting?
5 this was on my to-do list anyway but your point stands correct.

there is the problem of to alien to play and I think this is it plus they lack a coolness to their design as I likely know exactly what portrait they use.
1. Fair enough--though that will of course push you a bit closer to elf territory, by being "alien and magical." Perhaps their magic is what is brutish? That is, not glamours and illusions and other "pretty" magic, but fireballs and mage armor and other "violent" magic?
2. Roger dodger.
3. It could, though I was thinking something perhaps a bit more like charr from GW2: industrial and "Brutalist" (to use a term from architecture.) Sort of the way orks work in WH40k, just....less "powered by sheer dumb belief" and more "it's not pretty but it works."
4. Well, a hardcore militarist does not need to be an aggressor. Could have more of a Batman flavor, "crazy prepared" type. Though I was actually thinking of turians from Mass Effect, where the military effectively is the government and there's a strong "disciplined soldier" vibe to their culture (even if some people don't fit that vibe.)
5. Sounds like you've got a good start then.

There is nothing new under the sun.

All artistic creations are reinventions of things that already exist − especially if the artist wants viewers that can appreciate them!

There is a reason for the saying: "Good artists borrow, but great artists steal."

In art, the most important goal is, creating expressions outside of oneself that resonate with the inside of oneself. It is like making the world around you, part of you. So the artist can feel at home among the works.

The way to do this, is to discover the differences between what you like more and what you like less.

Write the two lists. It is a good way to start.

Also helpful is creating a "vision board", where one collects images that resonate in some way. See what the overall impression is like.

In fact, when drawing from within in this way, you probably will innovate new things.
While I don't fully disagree with the old wisdom, I also don't quite fully agree with it either. New things do appear...very rarely. The conception of something like the Internet was essentially alien to science fiction writers before "computer" began to refer to machines rather than "person who computes." And even the earliest inklings of proto-Internet fiction, like Asimov's Multivac, did not dream of things like this very messageboard, or Youtube, or Facebook, or the myriad ways in which a global and universally-accessible computer network would both radically change and directly integrate with human society.

Sometimes the new blindsides us, sometimes we actually see it in advance. The vast majority of the time it's old things presented in a new way though.
 

Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
What if, unlike elves, these guys weren't detached or capricious, but -were- lascivious? A whole species of aliens who are enlightened and delicate and gentle and randy or raunchy in their humor?
The Omec of Defiance were kind of space Drow-Gnolls. Technologically advanced and quite charismatic. But almost all the other species in the setting were considered inferior and…on the menu. IOW, they took many of the Drow-version of elf stereotypes and subverted them.


For that matter, one of my favorite Sci-Fi RPG alien species to drop in to fantasy settings are the Seshayans, originally from Alternity, and converted to Star*Drive (D20 Modern). Here’s a write up I found for them:

Sesheyan
Sources/Inspiration Starfinder Core Rulebook, Alternity Players Handbook, ObsidianPortal sites
These winged hunters were found on a jungle world at a stone-aged civilization level before they were subjugated by the Azlanti.

Ability Modifiers +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Hit Points 4

Size and Type
Sesheyan are Medium humanoids with the Sesheyan subtype.

Exceptional Vision
Sesheyans have low-light vision and darkvision. As a result, they can see in dim light as if it were normal light, and they can see with no light source at all to a range of 60 feet in black and white only. See low-light vision and darkvision on pages 264 and 263.

Sesheyan Mobility
Source Pact Worlds pg. 214 (Strix)
Sesheyans have a land speed of 20 feet and an extraordinary fly speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability.

Control Descent
As long as a sesheyan is conscious and able to use its wings, it never takes damage from a fall. Instead, it simply takes flight or glides safely to the ground. If the sesheyan cannot use its wings, it takes falling damage as normal.

Light Blindness (Ex)
Source Alien Archive 3 pg. 152, Alien Archive 2 pg. 151, Alien Archive pg. 155
The creature (sesheyan) is blinded for 1 round when first exposed to bright light, such as sunlight, and it is dazzled for as long as it remains in an area of bright light.
Wearing dark-tinted goggles (probably cheaper than darkvision goggles) negates the effects of light blindness.

Technophobic
Sesheyans are technophobic creatures. They take a -2 racial penalty on skill checks that require an understanding or direct use of technological items, including Computes, Engineering, Life Science, or Physical Science. This can also be applied on checks making use of tools or weapons that are not analog or archaic that require skill or proficiency to use, such as attack rolls for technological weapons, or checks for relevant such as relevant Culture, Medicine, Piloting, or Profession.
Due to this aversion to these skills and tools, sesheyans do not get to treat any affected skills as class skills, or treat themselves as proficient in the weapon/tool despite any chosen feats or class features, unless they have been able to challenge that fear. PC’s are assumed to have successfully challenged any fears relating to skills with which they have ranks or proficiencies in starting at first level. Beyond that, new skills gotten after first level are considered challenged after getting their second rank. For weapon proficiencies, the weapon’s level must be the PCs level or lower. Most NPC Sesheyans may never overcome any such fears, although it isn’t uncommon for them to overcome one skill and/or tool/weapon. Having overcome this specific fear only allows it to be treated as a class skill, or proficient weapon, it does not reverse the -2 racial penalty, just the inhibition of proficiency or class bonus.

Nightborn
Source Pact Worlds pg. 214 (Strix)
Sesheyans gain a +2 racial bonus to Perception and Stealth checks in dim light or darkness.

About the Sesheyan
Playing this Race
You Likely...
• Have keen senses of a hunter.
• Can fly as well, if not better than you walk.
• Hare a distinct distrust of technology, and things that are not from your own culture.
Other Races Probably...
• Consider you unintelligent and alien.
• Have trouble feeling comfortable looking at you. Either out of uncomfortable fear from your alien appearance, or pity for you being so ‘primitive’.

1657689706488.jpeg

When I use them, they’re typically a stand-in for Drow and/or Illithid s- a subterranean species, but one whose former empires have fallen into degeneracy. They have no idea what they were and that they used to be feared. And their fall happened so long ago, few surface dwellers remember, either…

Now, take something like that and instead of bat-like cave dwellers, you used one of the smarter avian species as a model. D&D already gives you the Kenku as a model of how that could go in one direction, using something like a parrot (as I recall). A race of evolved corvid mystics would probably NOT be all that elvish. Small bodied with limited flight (possibly only capable of gliding or wing-assisted jumps). Fiercely smart, but alien of perspective. Possibly ultra Machiavellian, like C. J. Cherryh’s Atevi:

… a race…for whom math is as intrinsic as breathing. Atevi possess no directly corresponding concept of liking or loving another person, but instead place utmost importance on a concept called man’chi, most directly analogous to loyalty. Man'chi is not merely a cultural construct, but is an intrinsic drive, a natural instinct to follow a leader, and is therefore a difference between the two races that cannot be bridged.

Theirs is a culture in which attempts at mild poisonings between close associates is almost expected.
 
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Yaarel

🇮🇱He-Mage
While I don't fully disagree with the old wisdom, I also don't quite fully agree with it either. New things do appear...very rarely. The conception of something like the Internet was essentially alien to science fiction writers before "computer" began to refer to machines rather than "person who computes." And even the earliest inklings of proto-Internet fiction, like Asimov's Multivac, did not dream of things like this very messageboard, or Youtube, or Facebook, or the myriad ways in which a global and universally-accessible computer network would both radically change and directly integrate with human society.

Sometimes the new blindsides us, sometimes we actually see it in advance. The vast majority of the time it's old things presented in a new way though.
Heh. A quip is: There are new things ABOVE the sun.

Even so, one normally arrives at something new via a process of discernment: first one thinks it, then one says it, then one does it.

Even the computer, robots, and artificial intelligence, are continuations of the medieval traditions about a "golem". Compare also the renaissance automaton, and the enlightenment clockwork universe.
 

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
Not making elves is harder than it seems. Once I started with an idea for a race that was based upon nekomimi, but the furry ears didn't sit well with me, then I switched form cats to foxes and started to add the tropes we associate with foxes (cunning, tricksty, nature, supernatural...), then added more mysticism, and ended with something that was essentially elves but with a claw/talon attack from their fingernails, and not as long lived as usual. So, I just admitted defeat...
you see the problem.
Pick a cool Sci Fi race like the Bajorans, Cardassians, Tellerites, Ferengi, Andorions, or Orions for example and ask yourself how would they adapt to a fantasy setting with wizards and clerics.

Then take their basic appearance and make a few changes.

Done.
a) several of them already correspond with in-built dnd races
b) I literally said I have never found a single species I liked all of hence me trying to make one as nothing ever found ever hits the spot.
1. Fair enough--though that will of course push you a bit closer to elf territory, by being "alien and magical." Perhaps their magic is what is brutish? That is, not glamours and illusions and other "pretty" magic, but fireballs and mage armor and other "violent" magic?
2. Roger dodger.
3. It could, though I was thinking something perhaps a bit more like charr from GW2: industrial and "Brutalist" (to use a term from architecture.) Sort of the way orks work in WH40k, just....less "powered by sheer dumb belief" and more "it's not pretty but it works."
4. Well, a hardcore militarist does not need to be an aggressor. Could have more of a Batman flavor, "crazy prepared" type. Though I was actually thinking of turians from Mass Effect, where the military effectively is the government and there's a strong "disciplined soldier" vibe to their culture (even if some people don't fit that vibe.)
5. Sounds like you've got a good start then.


While I don't fully disagree with the old wisdom, I also don't quite fully agree with it either. New things do appear...very rarely. The conception of something like the Internet was essentially alien to science fiction writers before "computer" began to refer to machines rather than "person who computes." And even the earliest inklings of proto-Internet fiction, like Asimov's Multivac, did not dream of things like this very messageboard, or Youtube, or Facebook, or the myriad ways in which a global and universally-accessible computer network would both radically change and directly integrate with human society.

Sometimes the new blindsides us, sometimes we actually see it in advance. The vast majority of the time it's old things presented in a new way though.
1 that is a logical option.
3 that runs into the problem of not looking alien as it will by nature seem human thus it is tricky.
4 that is hard to write but is do able, I do not know if it will work?
The Omec of Defiance were kind of space Drow-Gnolls. Technologically advanced and quite charismatic. But almost all the other species in the setting were considered inferior and…on the menu. IOW, they took many of the Drow-version of elf stereotypes and subverted them.


For that matter, one of my favorite Sci-Fi RPG alien species to drop in to fantasy settings are the Seshayans, originally from Alternity, and converted to Star*Drive (D20 Modern). Here’s a write up I found for them:

Sesheyan
Sources/Inspiration Starfinder Core Rulebook, Alternity Players Handbook, ObsidianPortal sites
These winged hunters were found on a jungle world at a stone-aged civilization level before they were subjugated by the Azlanti.

Ability Modifiers +2 Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Cha
Hit Points 4

Size and Type
Sesheyan are Medium humanoids with the Sesheyan subtype.

Exceptional Vision
Sesheyans have low-light vision and darkvision. As a result, they can see in dim light as if it were normal light, and they can see with no light source at all to a range of 60 feet in black and white only. See low-light vision and darkvision on pages 264 and 263.

Sesheyan Mobility
Source Pact Worlds pg. 214 (Strix)
Sesheyans have a land speed of 20 feet and an extraordinary fly speed of 30 feet with average maneuverability.

Control Descent
As long as a sesheyan is conscious and able to use its wings, it never takes damage from a fall. Instead, it simply takes flight or glides safely to the ground. If the sesheyan cannot use its wings, it takes falling damage as normal.

Light Blindness (Ex)
Source Alien Archive 3 pg. 152, Alien Archive 2 pg. 151, Alien Archive pg. 155
The creature (sesheyan) is blinded for 1 round when first exposed to bright light, such as sunlight, and it is dazzled for as long as it remains in an area of bright light.
Wearing dark-tinted goggles (probably cheaper than darkvision goggles) negates the effects of light blindness.

Technophobic
Sesheyans are technophobic creatures. They take a -2 racial penalty on skill checks that require an understanding or direct use of technological items, including Computes, Engineering, Life Science, or Physical Science. This can also be applied on checks making use of tools or weapons that are not analog or archaic that require skill or proficiency to use, such as attack rolls for technological weapons, or checks for relevant such as relevant Culture, Medicine, Piloting, or Profession.
Due to this aversion to these skills and tools, sesheyans do not get to treat any affected skills as class skills, or treat themselves as proficient in the weapon/tool despite any chosen feats or class features, unless they have been able to challenge that fear. PC’s are assumed to have successfully challenged any fears relating to skills with which they have ranks or proficiencies in starting at first level. Beyond that, new skills gotten after first level are considered challenged after getting their second rank. For weapon proficiencies, the weapon’s level must be the PCs level or lower. Most NPC Sesheyans may never overcome any such fears, although it isn’t uncommon for them to overcome one skill and/or tool/weapon. Having overcome this specific fear only allows it to be treated as a class skill, or proficient weapon, it does not reverse the -2 racial penalty, just the inhibition of proficiency or class bonus.

Nightborn
Source Pact Worlds pg. 214 (Strix)
Sesheyans gain a +2 racial bonus to Perception and Stealth checks in dim light or darkness.

About the Sesheyan
Playing this Race
You Likely...
• Have keen senses of a hunter.
• Can fly as well, if not better than you walk.
• Hare a distinct distrust of technology, and things that are not from your own culture.
Other Races Probably...
• Consider you unintelligent and alien.
• Have trouble feeling comfortable looking at you. Either out of uncomfortable fear from your alien appearance, or pity for you being so ‘primitive’.

View attachment 253561

When I use them, they’re typically a stand-in for Drow and/or Illithid s- a subterranean species, but one whose former empires have fallen into degeneracy. They have no idea what they were and that they used to be feared. And their fall happened so long ago, few surface dwellers remember, either…

Now, take something like that and instead of bat-like cave dwellers, you used one of the smarter avian species as a model. D&D already gives you the Kenku as a model of how that could go in one direction, using something like a parrot (as I recall). A race of evolved corvid mystics would probably NOT be all that elvish. Small bodied with limited flight (possibly only capable of gliding or wing-assisted jumps). Fiercely smart, but alien of perspective. Possibly ultra Machiavellian, like C. J. Cherryh’s Atevi:



Theirs is a culture in which attempts at mild poisonings between close associates is almost expected.
I will do some reading, I am not certain most people can play hype Machiavellians.
 

Mind of tempest

(he/him)advocate for 5e psionics
also in other news, I am no longer working on something that is completely without a precedent look at this but click no links.
 

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