TTRPG combat with emphasis on *player* skill?

[dis_pear]

Hello! Can anyone recommend me a ttrpg with a *combat system* that gets easier and easier the more the *players* know about the enemy and experience playing the game? Something where a very skilled low-level non-min-maxed party could go toe-to-toe with an adult dragon or equally impressive creature and win, say, 80% of the time.

Put another way, I'm looking for a tabletop game where all else being equal (level, equipment, etc) the power level of knowledgeable and skilled players drastically dwarfs the power level of unskilled players.

I'd assume random elements - especially how defense works - would be minimal to make the game more predictable for the players.

Please note:

• I am specifically talking about how much the players affect the characters' prowess.
• I'm not talking about specific or narrow choices made during character creation; when I say combat system, I mean the turn-by-turn decisions players are making after some in-game prep work.
• I don't assume a level 3 party fighting a dragon would be easy, just that it would be possible - but only by a set of extremely skilled players all working together. This hypothetical fight could last several in-game days and if one PC makes a mistake (at that low of a level) I'd assume a TPK.

Thanks!

 

[Ratskinner]

Hello! Can anyone recommend me a ttrpg with a *combat system* that gets easier and easier the more the *players* know about the enemy and experience playing the game? Something where a very skilled low-level non-min-maxed party could go toe-to-toe with an adult dragon or equally impressive creature and win, say, 80% of the time.

Put another way, I'm looking for a tabletop game where all else being equal (level, equipment, etc) the power level of knowledgeable and skilled players drastically dwarfs the power level of unskilled players.

I'd assume random elements - especially how defense works - would be minimal to make the game more predictable for the players.

Please note:

• I am specifically talking about how much the players affect the characters' prowess.
• I'm not talking about specific or narrow choices made during character creation; when I say combat system, I mean the turn-by-turn decisions players are making after some in-game prep work.
• I don't assume a level 3 party fighting a dragon would be easy, just that it would be possible - but only by a set of extremely skilled players all working together. This hypothetical fight could last several in-game days and if one PC makes a mistake (at that low of a level) I'd assume a TPK.

Thanks!

Off the top, Capes is the only one I know of. But some folks quibble about whether it's an RPG or not. It's certainly not traditional, and I don't know if it would fulfill any tactical needs your group has. There might be a PbtA game out there?

The narrative of the party winning through cleverness, etc. Could be accomplished in several systems. But forcing the players to skill up...that seems difficult to me. Maybe some version of Gumshoe or Fate with a modified "damage" system for the monster? So that the monster becomes easier to kill if you've done x, y, or z? Maybe?

I mean, if you're talking about a traditional RPG setup, then I think you're really talking about the GM enforcing things like the dragon can only be killed with the MacGuffin or some such. So, running roughshod over the usual damage and combat mechanics. Otherwise, I don't know of anything that forces player skill to improve. (I can imagine some requirements for modifying D&D to allow for it, but nothing outside GM force that would ensure it.)

 

[GMMichael]

Something where a very skilled low-level non-min-maxed . . .

Put another way, I'm looking for a tabletop game where all else being equal (level, equipment, etc) the power level of knowledgeable and skilled players drastically dwarfs the power level of unskilled players.

I'd assume random elements - especially how defense works - would be minimal to make the game more predictable for the players.

Please note:

• I am specifically talking about how much the players affect the characters' prowess.
• I'm not talking about specific or narrow choices made during character creation; when I say combat system, I mean the turn-by-turn decisions players are making after some in-game prep work.
• I don't assume a level 3 party fighting a dragon would be easy, just that it would be possible - but only by a set of extremely skilled players all working together. This hypothetical fight could last several in-game days and if one PC makes a mistake (at that low of a level) I'd assume a TPK.

Min-maxing is a player-skill issue, so I'm not sure why you're discounting this. So is memorizing the monster sheets...so is finding beneficial splat books...

If you have a game where skilled players grossly outshine the unskilled ones, all else being equal, well, you don't really need character sheets and don't really have an RPG at that point.

So, nitpicking aside, the elephant in the room is a qualifier for this. D&D, moreso 3.5 than 5, presents enough tactical choices for skilled players to excel. Unskilled players draw swords and chop. Skilled players gather info, equip properly, prep with potions and spells, gain surprise, kite, divert, heal, utilize terrain, and coordinate. The dwarfing becomes more feasible when you include min-maxing.

 

[Thac0 the Barbarian]

I would also say that 4e D&D offers a tactical richness that provides at least some of what your looking for. While my playtime was not extensive (making it hard for me to answer the specific question regarding the dragon) combat has the potential to be altered substantially by synergistic team play-on both the tactical and strategic levels.

 

[dis_pear]

Min-maxing is a player-skill issue, so I'm not sure why you're discounting this. So is memorizing the monster sheets...so is finding beneficial splat books...

Put simply, the min-maxing aspect of character creation is not the particular challenge I'm looking for at this particular time for this particular group. Finding splat books and using them to create a character is a skill, sure, but it's a different kind of skill than in-character strategic and tactical decisions. Memorizing monster sheets/attack patterns/etc, though, is something I'd embrace.

If you have a game where skilled players grossly outshine the unskilled ones, all else being equal, well, you don't really need character sheets and don't really have an RPG at that point.

It's more toward the action side of action RPG, but it's still a game about playing the role of a character. I don't know how you came to the conclusion that character sheets are unnecessary because players of different skill levels perform differently.

So, nitpicking aside, the elephant in the room is a qualifier for this. D&D, moreso 3.5 than 5, presents enough tactical choices for skilled players to excel. Unskilled players draw swords and chop. Skilled players gather info, equip properly, prep with potions and spells, gain surprise, kite, divert, heal, utilize terrain, and coordinate. The dwarfing becomes more feasible when you include min-maxing.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I DMed 3.5 for several years with a few groups of experienced players and I never encountered one that was capable of taking down an awake adult dragon/Balor/Lich at level 3 or 4 if they're not playing Pun-Pun or a similar obviously broken build. I'm having a tough time envisioning how exactly that could happen given core rulebook characters with level-appropriate loot.

 

[GMMichael]

I'm not saying you're wrong, but I DMed 3.5 for several years with a few groups of experienced players and I never encountered one that was capable of taking down an awake adult dragon/Balor/Lich at level 3 or 4 if they're not playing Pun-Pun or a similar obviously broken build.

Hmm. Maybe you're looking for Modos 2 then? In it, PCs get rewarded in real time for using their flaws, which tend to get overlooked by unskilled players. It also calls for teamwork, positioning, patience, and planning...against dragons or liches that don't generally have more than 25-30 health. The game calls for a skilled GM too though, since battles don't default to combat rules like in other games, and you can imagine how a group could knock off 25 health with a few lucky rolls.