tumble and total defense

[baradtgnome]

Hi gang,

What is the consensus out there. can you use total defense and tumble? total defense says you don't attack or perform any other activity except moving your speed. PG 127 PHB

is tumble just part of the move action? Or is it considered another activity. There is the synergy bonus that implies that you are good at total defense if you have tumbling skill.

thanks!

 

[thegreatbuddha]

You can't tumble & use Total Defense in the same round. They're already combined by the synergy bonus, which doubles the AC bonus from Total Defense IIRC.

 

[Kwalish Kid]

Total defense is a standard action. It seems pretty specific that you can't do anything other than a typical move action. That rules out an active use of the Tumble skill, which is a move-equivalent action. However, if you have 5 ranks in tumble, you get a +6 bonus from Total Defense instead of +4.

 

[thegreatbuddha]

Isn't Total Defense a full-round action? IIRC, there's Fighting Defensively and there's Total Defense....

 

[Shin Okada]

Total Defense is a standard action. That means your action includes a reguler move. And you can tumble up to 20 feet as part of normal movement. So I think you can tumble while taking Total Defense action.

 

[daemonslye]

SRD:

Total defense [Standard][AoO: No]
Description: A combatant doesn't attack or perform any other activity other than moving at base speed , but the combatant gets a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round. The combatant's AC improves at the start of this action, so it helps against any attacks of opportunity provoked while moving.

"any other activity other than moving base speed". hmmm.
Seems kind of clear if you consider tumbling "an activity",
other than "moving base speed" that is.

Tumble (DEX; TRAINED ONLY; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)
Retry: An audience, once it has judged a tumbler as uninteresting, is not receptive to repeat performances. The character can try to reduce damage from a fall as an instant reaction once per fall. The character can attempt to tumble as part of movement once per round.

"Can tumble as part of movement" hmmmm.. A little loose
in the wording there.

If your DM rules that tumbling is an "activity" that simply
occurs during movement, he must rule you cannot
tumble in a round taking total defense. However, if tumbling
is an integrated part of your base move (and not a "special
activity that may occur during a move") then he may rule you
can tumble.

Just reading closely, I come up with tumbling as an activity
you choose to take (or not) during a move and thus,
not available to a character while using the total defense
standard action.

Your DM will be the final judge of course.

~D

For further reference:

Standard Action: A standard action allows a combatant to do something and move a combatant's indicated speed during a combat round. A combatant can move before or after performing the activity of the action.

 

[doktorstick]

We've interpreted to mean that you can tumble (because it is a "move" and you can't exceed your base movement) and full defense (standard action). It has not caused any balance issues, yet.

/ds

 

[the Jester]

I always assumed the increase to +6 from total defense while tumbling sort of implied you were tumbling the whole time.

 

[doktorstick]

I always assumed the increase to +6 from total defense while tumbling sort of implied you were tumbling the whole time.

It is an important distinction though. If you have <5 ranks of tumble, you do not get a bonus to full defense. Some people may be in this situation. If you have 5+ ranks, then you get +6 AC when you do full defense. However, if you move by tumbling, the mobs may not get to make an AoO against you. Failing your tumble check would mean they can make an AoO, but your AC is +6 (and hit by good attack bonuses or that dreaded natural 20).

/ds

 

[daemonslye]

SRD:

Tumble (DEX; TRAINED ONLY; ARMOR CHECK PENALTY)

Special: A character with 5 or more ranks in Tumble gains a +3 dodge AC bonus when executing the fight defensively standard or full-round action instead of a +2 dodge AC bonus.

A character with 5 or more ranks in Tumble gains a +6 dodge AC bonus when executing the total defense standard action instead of a +4 dodge AC bonus.

If the character has 5 or more ranks in Jump, the character gets a +2 synergy bonus on Tumble checks.

Seems to me that it is possible that they are treating the
5 ranks in tumble as a "synergy" bonus to "Total Defense"
and "Fight Defensively".

Does one use a Jump skill while tumbling? Possibly. Does one
Bluff while pick pocketing? Sure. Does one use Escape Artist
while binding someone? *shrugs* Does one Tumble when
trying to maintain balance? Er, ok.

However, you are not also making checks for these things;
Which does happen when using a "tumble synergy bonus"
to total defense - allowing a benefit from both effects.

I can see how you could extrapolate the ability to tumble
during total defense. I will likely rule a bit more conservatively
in my game (sorry in advance, you rogues!).

~D