"Tumbling" through threatened spaces

[KerlanRayne]

I'm still learning all the differences between 3.5 and Pathfinder. I was confused by the changes to "tumbling". In order to pass safely through a threatened space you have to roll an Acrobatics check against a DC equal to the creature's Combat Maneuver Defense. This doesn't make sense to me. How does having a high strength help against this? What about things like Deflection bonuses to AC?

I know they wanted to make it simpler as well as harder than the flat DC 15 check, but I think it's now too hard to pass the check.

What do you all think about it?

 

[Wiseblood]

I like the changes. It makes it harder to tumble past a skilled apponent.

I also must admit I think tumbling in combat should be an act of desperation not the go-to tactic for battlefield positioning.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I hate it passionately. All the things that add to CMD affecting tumble is dumb. Tying a skill check to oppose BAB (which with many monsters can get ASTRONOMICAL) is incredibly freaking stupid, and I've argued so for years. I'm in a level 14 gestalt game right now. The rogue has an acrobatics modifier in the mid 30s and has failed 75% of her attempts. I myself have maxed ranks, decent dex, and add my massive intellect to dex skills (Factotum), for a bonus close to 30. I have yet to succeed on a roll, not that I try often, I'm well aware of how suicidal it is now.

OP, I had a thread from a long time ago asking about the new Acrobatics skill, if you'd like: http://www.enworld.org/forum/pathfi...321-acrobatics-skill-questions-critiques.html

Wiseblood: I completely disagree. Moving around the battlefield reliably is critical to classes like the rogue and monk, who can't survive long stretches in melee, and as a concept has a rich history in every kind of media as well as D&D itself. Pathfinder has made skirmishing entirely untenable. Tumbling around might be for desperation for some characters, for others it's the basis of their whole fighting approach.

 

[billd91]

I also agree that pinning the tumble check to CMD was too much. I argued against including things like BAB in the tumble check DC during the playtest. It gives too much to slow, ponderous, but huge HD creatures. Given my druthers, I'd make some feats that make the tumble check harder and put them in the combat reflexes tree or something like that. Then if you wanted the creature hard to tumble past, you'd pick up those feats.

But, Wiseblood, don't think of tumbling as flipping and rolling around the battlefield. It's really just moving so that you don't drop your guard and give up an AoO. That's it. I don't see why it shouldn't be relatively easy.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

I also agree that pinning the tumble check to CMD was too much. I argued against including things like BAB in the tumble check DC during the playtest. It gives too much to slow, ponderous, but huge HD creatures. Given my druthers, I'd make some feats that make the tumble check harder and put them in the combat reflexes tree or something like that. Then if you wanted the creature hard to tumble past, you'd pick up those feats.

And it's actually worse than just factoring in BAB. It's also strength (and dex, but that's more ot be expected). And deflection. And insight. And luck. And any other thing you can find that adds to touch AC. All sorts of things that make sense making it more difficult to say...grab someone, or sweep their leg, or push them back. But make no sense whatsoever for a check where you're trying to avoid contact with the person!

But, Wiseblood, don't think of tumbling as flipping and rolling around the battlefield. It's really just moving so that you don't drop your guard and give up an AoO. That's it. I don't see why it shouldn't be relatively easy.

Not that thinking of it as flipping and rolling around is bad-wrong-fun (I finally got to use that stupid phrase, go me!), either.
I personally like to have combat acrobats doing crazy awesome wire-fu stunts.

 

[SteelDraco]

In 3.5, we used to use Reflex saves to resist Tumbling - that tied it to defender skill without adding BAB and Strength. I've always thought that large, slow, strong creatures should be the easiest to tumble past - that's the imagery I'd expect from all fictional representations I'm familiar with.

The trouble is that a single CMD does EVERYTHING. I'd be inclined to have the size modifier be a penalty to CMD when resisting Acrobatics, not a bonus. Large things should have trouble dealing with much smaller foes tumbling around them, not a bonus. But then you start having a different CMD for things, which starts to cause more trouble. I can see just using 10 + BAB + Dex modifier, with a size modifier added to resist some things (push, pull, bull rush, grapples, etc) but not all the time. Just not sure it's worth the trouble to split up CMD by combat maneuver being attempted.

 

[Wiseblood]

Perhaps I have a bias against calling it tumbling.(acrobatics is much better) It sounds like something a fool should do.

[MENTION=359]SteelDraco[/MENTION]
Reflex save sounds good and makes sense but it leads to more dicerolls than before and is often easier than dc15.

DC 15-20 is a joke. You hit that range with a roll of 5 with most first level characters that try this junk.

Just as moving around an enemy can be dangerous cartwheeling and summersaulting around one should be too.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Perhaps I have a bias against calling it tumbling.(acrobatics is much better) It sounds like something a fool should do.

Or a gymnast. Or a thief acrobat. Or a martial artist...

DC 15-20 is a joke. You hit that range with a roll of 5 with most first level characters that try this junk.

Level 1 character with rank and class skill bonus, 18 dex, and no armor check penalty (yeah, that's not likely to happen, but let's assume someone the optimal): +8 bonus. Needs a 7 under the most ideal conditions to succeed. I would NOT try tumbling unless absolutely necessary with those odds, especially with 1st level hp. Way too huge a gamble. Gods help you if you're MAD and could "only" put a 16 in dex or wanted survivable AC and ate a -1 or -2 armor check penalty.

In any case, succeeding on a 5 is still far from fool proof. DC 15 does become automatic eventually, but it takes a lot longer than level 1, that's hyperbole.

Just as moving around an enemy can be dangerous cartwheeling and summersaulting around one should be too.

Except tumbling is being used precisely to avoid the danger of moving around an enemy. You're reducing your speed and training in the skill expressly for the purpose of evading that danger. If you also make that dangerous, it kinda defeats the whole purpose...

 

[Wiseblood]

Or a gymnast. Or a thief acrobat. Or a martial artist...

I can get behind that.

Level 1 character with rank and class skill bonus, 18 dex, and no armor check penalty (yeah, that's not likely to happen, but let's assume someone the optimal): +8 bonus. Needs a 7 under the most ideal conditions to succeed. I would NOT try tumbling unless absolutely necessary with those odds, especially with 1st level hp. Way too huge a gamble. Gods help you if you're MAD and could "only" put a 16 in dex or wanted survivable AC and ate a -1 or -2 armor check penalty.

In any case, succeeding on a 5 is still far from fool proof. DC 15 does become automatic eventually, but it takes a lot longer than level 1, that's hyperbole.

Hyperbole was not my intent. I should have stated that a static number that can be hit by level 1 characters with rolls below 10 become trivial.

If the quality of X can increase the DC of Skill Y isn't it rational that this would apply to tumbling past opponents?

Except tumbling is being used precisely to avoid the danger of moving around an enemy. You're reducing your speed and training in the skill expressly for the purpose of evading that danger. If you also make that dangerous, it kinda defeats the whole purpose...

I am not sympathetic to this plight. Here are my reasons.
*Acrobatics has several uses.
*Attacks of Opportunity for moving through threatened squares are not a
suprise.
*Most classes have no chance to move through threatened squares without expending resources.
*With uncertainty, tumbling stays an option but it is not a guarantee of saftey. Tumbling is still possible but it is not without risk. The 3.5 method was like having a Hack that automatically defeats a rule of the game. The rule as it is forces players to use discernment when using a tactic.

My question for you would be. If there were no AoO's for movement through threatened squares (except running) would people still tumble?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

If the quality of X can increase the DC of Skill Y isn't it rational that this would apply to tumbling past opponents?

I don't know what you're trying to say, exactly.

*Acrobatics has several uses.

So split tumble out as its own skill. Paizo's the one that felt the need to group it with other skills, it was quite fine as its own skill. I don't get a lot of their decisions. "Put spot, listen, and search all into one skill, but heal's good on its own." What's with that?!

*Attacks of Opportunity for moving through threatened squares are not a suprise.

But some classes need to be able to safely move around in order to fight effectively. Some players want to play characters that fight in such a way.

*Most classes have no chance to move through threatened squares without expending resources.

Skill ranks is a resource. Loss of speed is also a lost resource of sorts. And hell yes, classes meant to be mobile in combat should be able to move about safely at a lower resource cost than say a Wizard who needs to use teleportation magic. It's their specialty! (one of them, that is)

*With uncertainty, tumbling stays an option but it is not a guarantee of saftey. Tumbling is still possible but it is not without risk. The 3.5 method was like having a Hack that automatically defeats a rule of the game. The rule as it is forces players to use discernment when using a tactic.

No, it makes the entire concept suicidal. If I have a 50% chance of being attacked when I tumble and attempt to hit and run an enemy, then he is getting 3 attacks for every 2 of mine. Assuming equal attack, damage, hit points, etc... He will win the fight. That's a massive disadvantage. And since you need to be in light armor to tumble at all (unless you're a dwarf or something, but heavier armor just makes the odds even worse for failing) and probably a squishy melee class for trying to do this in the first place... it probably ISN'T an equal matchup, either. Tumble with a high failure chance is a suicidal, fool-hardy tactic that is more than just "risky."

My question for you would be. If there were no AoO's for movement through threatened squares (except running) would people still tumble?

If they felt like reducing their speed for no actual benefit, I guess so. If it were me, reducing my speed for no logical reason, I wouldn't tumble up to the enemy, though. I'd moon walk.