Turning magic on its head

[Exen Trik]

OK, so I'm working on a little project, and need some feedback on the magic system I'm developing for it. Simply put, I'm throwing out everything and making it from scratch, and from the bottom up. Of course, this means I'm a bit lost as how to balance it, I'm not quite off the map but am right in the middle of "Here Be Dragons". Here's the basic points of the system:


-Mana Based: Uses a system of mana points similar to hp, with a certain number gained for each level with the amount depending on the class, and bonus per level based on stats. Unlike hp, mana gained will be set points rather than die rolls.

-Simple Spells: Blasting, healing, buffs and debuffs, all with rather simple and straightforward effects. There are far fewer spells overall, and (with perhaps some exceptions) only one per level is learned. There is no form of spell levels, although spells relative power levels and have mana costs that reflect that. Mana costs may be modified by metamagic like effects, often by fractions of the spells base amount.

-Different Magic Formulas: Spells number of dice of damage or healing will remain constant, rather than scale with caster level. Duration is also CL invariant. Range, area and the like are also constant, and often reduced. Spell DCs are the opposite, they scale with caster level off a base DC set for each spell. Spells can receive bonuses from high ability scores and under certain conditions, for damage and healing the changes are by a certain number per die.

-Universal Caster Level: Caster levels from all classes stack, and all classes gain some amount of caster levels. Caster level is less of a role in the power of spells, but is important as a requirement to qualify for more powerful magic.


I know is all rather general and theoretical at this point, so its hard to critique accurately, but I want to see if I'm missing any glaring problems or potential pitfalls of this so far.

Thanks in advance

 

[cimbrog]

I've been trying to do the same myself, I'll throw my $0.02 in.

-Mana Based...

Points are good...

-Simple Spells: Blasting, healing, buffs and debuffs, all with rather simple and straightforward effects. There are far fewer spells overall, and (with perhaps some exceptions) only one per level is learned. There is no form of spell levels, although spells relative power levels and have mana costs that reflect that. Mana costs may be modified by metamagic like effects, often by fractions of the spells base amount.
-Different Magic Formulas:...

If you want to do away with spell levels, maybe just making one blast, heal, buff, etc. spell that can be pumped up with mana? The blast spell does 1d6 ranged touch for 2 every mana you pump into it, the buff adds +1 bonus for each 2 mana, etc. The main problem comes with how to deal with all the "toolbelt" spells effects like levetation, teleportation and such.

-Universal Caster Level: Caster levels from all classes stack, and all classes gain some amount of caster levels. Caster level is less of a role in the power of spells, but is important as a requirement to qualify for more powerful magic.

Are you going for a "anyone can cast spells, some are just better" type of feel? I've always kicked around the idea of making spells more like equipment items that some classes are just better at using than others. Doing it that way would keep you from having every spell written before play, you would only need the ones you intend to make availible to the players.

 

[erf_beto]

The main problem comes with how to deal with all the "toolbelt" spells effects like levetation, teleportation and such.

Since there are few spells available, and you can only learn so much, utility spells could probably be handled as class features or feat chains (like the wizard's 'one metamagic feat every 5 levels', only it'd be one 'toolbelt spell' every 2 levels or so...). Nothing wrong in charging mana for uses of Turn Undead or Fly, IMO, but on the other hand, if they were feats you could limit them to X-uses per day, going around the problem that every spellpoint based magic system comes up with of too many problematic spells (like teleport) being cast all day...

Are you going for a "anyone can cast spells, some are just better" type of feel? I've always kicked around the idea of making spells more like equipment items that some classes are just better at using than others. Doing it that way would keep you from having every spell written before play, you would only need the ones you intend to make availible to the players.

I think Exen Trik meant something along the lines of UA's "Magic Rating" variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/magic/magicRating.htm), where every class (even rogues and fighters) add something to caster level. But your aproach is good too. I've been fooling around with the idea of a dnd-like board game to play with my litte cousins, with only 3 classes (Warrior, Rogue & Sorcerer, a-la PC game Diablo), where everyone can do magic after adventuring for some time.

 

[papastebu]

If you limit spell choices too much, you are going to run into things like casting the same spells over and over again, all day long, as an earlier poster put it. This might get boring for some.
Are you going to use immunities to certain forces? Like some creatures are unaffected by fire and heat, ice and cold, etc. If so then a general blast spell will not work as well unless you have one for each type of energy/damage you wish to include.
Are you going to have a casting check, where the caster has some chance of failure? If you are, then if a spell is successfully cast, then will the caster have to make a hit, also?

You should think about how long it takes for a single mana point to regenerate. If you decide that it doesn't take long, then maybe consider making a spell cost more to cast each time it is cast if the caster hasn't rested in-between.

Even with immunities being dealt with, there should be some sort of area-effect spells, some sort of area-damage spells, and some sort of direct-effect and direct-damage spells.

Area-effect would be something like Mass Charm, or Invisibility, 10' radius.
Area damage would be Fireball and the like.
Direct effect would be Heal or Clone Self type things.
Direct damage would be Harm or Magic Missile.
Any of this helpful?

 

[sirwmholder]

You should probably check out Elements of Magic Revised. It was written by EN World's own Ryan Nock and list almost all of the things you are looking for in spell creation and at $8.95 for the pdf it's a steal. Basically there is magic... no Divine, Arcane or Psionic... you can choose how your character receives their power. Every spell is built modularly... you determine effect, range, area and visuals. A very solid system and you can find lots of help with your own spells right here on the EN Publishing Forums.

Hope this helps,
William Holder

 

[the Jester]

The psionic system might be a good place for you to start. It's similar to what you are proposing.

 

[Nifft]

The psionic system might be a good place for you to start. It's similar to what you are proposing.

That was my first thought as well. Even if you don't like the names and all of the effects, you could probably use it as the base for your system.

It's an excellent system with generally better balance than spellcasting.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Exen Trik]

Thanks for the replies all I'm going to try and further explain what I'm going for, I have a specific style of game in mind and am just trying to make it work. You guys are helping me explain it better though, so thanks a bunch for that.

If you want to do away with spell levels, maybe just making one blast, heal, buff, etc. spell that can be pumped up with mana?

I'm going for simple, but not quite that simple. Individual spells with different feels are important for what I'm going for.

Are you going for a "anyone can cast spells, some are just better" type of feel?

Actually, everyone gets a "spell list" but aside from the caster types they don't all work quite like magic. In any case, I'm not going to even touch them until I develop the thing I have to balance them against. Thus this post

Since there are few spells available, and you can only learn so much, utility spells could probably be handled as class features or feat chains (like the wizard's 'one metamagic feat every 5 levels', only it'd be one 'toolbelt spell' every 2 levels or so...).

Magic will be largely combat based, and the options for utility spells will be fewer. In some cases such as teleportation, the spell has a dual use: It can get you from place to place, or get a group of foes out of your hair. I'm also playing with the idea of cantrip type uses that become available with certain spells; if you can throw a fireball, you should be able to light a campfire.

Feats are important, but moreso for giving options for the way spells are cast. Gives options and tactics to a smaller spell list.

I think Exen Trik meant something along the lines of UA's "Magic Rating" variant

That's about right, since I'm aiming for lots of multiclassing to be going on.

If you limit spell choices too much, you are going to run into things like casting the same spells over and over again, all day long, as an earlier poster put it. This might get boring for some.

That is something I've been concerned about. The number of spells is small, but as one levels up there should be not only the choices of new spells, but new uses for the same spells. But regardless, casters will have a very small list of effects, and this is to have the casters need to develop a certain theme and style to be effective

Are you going to use immunities to certain forces? Like some creatures are unaffected by fire and heat, ice and cold, etc. If so then a general blast spell will not work as well unless you have one for each type of energy/damage you wish to include.

Ah yes, there will be different series of spells for different elements, and they will differ in ways other than damage types. I'm also tinkering with a somewhat more interesting combination of damage resistances and reductions, but I don't know how it will balance out... it too needs the magic system down before I can work it out.

Are you going to have a casting check, where the caster has some chance of failure? If you are, then if a spell is successfully cast, then will the caster have to make a hit, also?

You should think about how long it takes for a single mana point to regenerate. If you decide that it doesn't take long, then maybe consider making a spell cost more to cast each time it is cast if the caster hasn't rested in-between.

Thats just more rolling, more bookkeeping, and more factors to consider. Trying to keep the way things work as simple as possible. If you have the mana, you can cast the spell.

As for regenerating, it should be fairly easy maybe 10% for an hour rest, and getting more back could just be a batter of drinking a potion or somesuch. Not as strict control as spells/uses per day provides, but you do need to expend resources of some kind rather than cast spells willy-nilly all day. What you can do in a single encounter and in any particular round is more important than per day potential.

Even with immunities being dealt with, there should be some sort of area-effect spells, some sort of area-damage spells, and some sort of direct-effect and direct-damage spells.

Area-effect would be something like Mass Charm, or Invisibility, 10' radius.
Area damage would be Fireball and the like.
Direct effect would be Heal or Clone Self type things.
Direct damage would be Harm or Magic Missile.
Any of this helpful?

Yes I think so. I've been focusing on damages and effects, but mostly they have been area only. Part of this is by design, as the main casters are blast/area effect centric in theme, but deviating from that for the other classes could be better than what I've been doing.

You should probably check out Elements of Magic Revised.

The psionic system might be a good place for you to start.

Even if you don't like the names and all of the effects, you could probably use it as the base for your system.

I'm familiar with the way these two systems work, and they are nice but they don't give the feel I'm going for.



My intent for the initial post was so see if the way things scale would cause me any obvious problems, and how I may be able to deal with them.

Say a basic fireball type spell does, say, 5d6 damage by iteslf, with a DC 14 Reflex at a cost of 25 mana. You can get it at 4th level, and you might have 40 mana at that point. Ten levels later with 140 mana, you can cast the same spell with the exact same range, area and cost, with 5d6+12 damage and at DC 19 Reflex. Would a higher level spell, with the same damage type, twice the area, twice the damage dice, the same DC, be balanced with a 60 mana cost? 100? Would an effect that doubles damage of any spell at double the mana be balanced for the weaker spell? Or for the stronger one? What is the value of modifying the DC, or the area?

My head spins with the numbers... what I'm looking for is some mathematical guidelines to keep these things in check. I mean, I want the *use* of the magic system to be simple, but this balancing act is anything but...

 

[Exen Trik]

A bump for hopes of some ideas here. Although to be honest, I'd understand if you all don't want to touch this with a 10ft pole

I'll progress with this regardless, and when its far enough along I'll present the whole thing for review. It will be a lot easier to understand when the it's all laid out, methinks.

 

[Nifft]

So far there's not enough to critique. If you don't like existing mana systems or existing free-form systems, and you haven't actually spelled out what you would do instead, there's not much we can discuss, is there?

-- N