Turning Undead variant

[Bladesong]

There are actually a number of other "variant" turning threads going on, but I am going to interject one of them here. Our group has been using the damage idea rather than turning for about a month now. The players absolutely LOVE IT. I feel it will still need some adjustments, but it is working well so far. Basically undead have a "turning class" for lack of a better title which is equal to 11 + HD + CHR or WIS modifier (whichever is higher) + Turn resistance + misc. (if any). The cleric has a positive energy attack which is d20 + 1/2 Cleric level + CHR modifier + misc. (if any) which is a 30' radius burst from the cleric. The damage (for now) is 2d6 + cleric level + CHR modifier. Any undead in the area of effect that the attack "misses" still takes half damage. A roll of 20 is a threat and has a x2 modifer for the crit. On a crit I also add that the undead are repelled (like a circle effect) from the 60' diameter area for a number of rounds equal to the cleric's CHR modifier. A Greater Turning attempt is treated like a crit automatically, but still has a chance to crit on a 20. There are some turning feats I just do not allow, but most are easily modified to work with this method. Since our spell casters already do attack rolls for spell attacks, I have virtually eliminated the need for me as DM to make any Saving Throws, and the players very much prefer having all the "power" in making their own rolls.

 

[Iceflame55]

So, I sat down and tried to come up with some numbers. I asked myself, what would a typical cleric at a variety of levels do with a turn undead check? I figured that my generic cleric starts with a 16 Cha, and gets better every few levels (I know this might be a little on the high side, but I wanted to figure this for a cleric who would specialize in turning undead, so I picked a high Cha).

A Clr3 will usually turn a 4HD undead, and will usually turn 3 of them.
A Clr6 will usually turn a 7HD undead, and will usually turn 2 of them.
A Clr9 will usually turn a 10HD undead, and will usually turn 2 of them.
A Clr12 will usually turn a 13HD undead, and will usually turn 2 of them.

Okay, so I noticed a pattern. I decided to then ask how many HD of lower-powered undead each cleric could turn. This generated new results. Then I asked myself how many hit points worth of enemies this was effectively defeating.

So, I thought, why not make this work like a modified version of the paladin's lay on hands?

A cleric's turn undead could work like this. The damage is cleric's level * Cha modifier (for paladins, it's paladin's level - 4). So the Clr12 with an 18 Cha is doing 48 points of damage. This isn't going to kill a 12HD undead (in one blast), but it's going to wipe out all the minions that are 7th level and lower (which fits, because a Clr12 destroys any 6HD undead that is turned). The ones that live through it aren't going to like getting a second one.

If the damage seems too much, or this makes turning too powerful, add in a Will save for 1/2 damage. Make the DC equal to 10 + 1/2 Cleric's level + Cha modifier.

Dave

I like the Idea of Turning doing damage . But here's something that might make it interesting; have it be a cone effect. If I remember right, the Handbook states that turning requires a cleric to do something to trigger the effect, be it prayer, declaring that the Undea will go AWAY, brandishing a holy symbol etc. It would stand to reason that Undead who aren't in the area of effect wouldn't be affected.

 

[Vrecknidj]

A cone effect is fine; the area isn't really a concern to me (except for a line, which wouldn't make sense to me). Although a radius around the cleric seems okay too.

Dave

 

[Kerrick]

Wow. With all the stuff posted here, we should be able to piece together a workable system...

Here's what I think…

duration: concentration, up to 1 round/(effective cleric) level - see below

radius: I'm thinking about reducing it from 60' to 30', with the availability of a feat to increase it (sort of like metamagic - maybe costing two turning attempts)

attacking: I think maintaining the turn should be like concentrating to maintain a spell.

I like the concentration. Range: I think 30 ft. works best, with the option of increasing it by 10 ft./feat.

Why not have two ways of doing it:

Concentration - the cleric holds out his symbol and makes a turn check to keep undead at bay for up to 1 rd/level; those undead who fail the check cannot enter the area of effect (say 30 ft.); undead that aren't turned still suffer a -2 penalty (like protection from evil).

Or positive energy burst - the cleric deals damage (say 1d6/level) to all undead in 30 ft., and those that are reduced to 0 are destroyed. The only problem I see is why a cleric would choose the former over the latter

effects:
Will save DC (10+effective cleric level+CHA bonus+whatever other bonuses) Negates.

Turn resistance applies to this Will save as resistance bonus.

Undead who fail are knocked prone and must get up on their turn and flee the radius of effect. They may not attempt to re-enter the area as long as the effect remains.

Additionally, undead who critically fail (by more than five) take 1d6 holy damage/2 effective cleric level. I think I will cap this at 5d6(?)

Undead attempting to enter the area of effect must succeed at the same Will save or be prevented from entering. Undead forced into the area (picked up and thrown by a hearty fighter type, for example) suffer the same effects as the undead initially in the area.

Will save: Yes; a natural 1 means it's destroyed (though we need a system for how a really powerful cleric can destroy really weak undead...maybe the energy burst?). Knocked prone: Why? Doesn't make any sense, and the PCs would get AoOs galore. Critical failure damage: sounds good. I'd say that undead forced into the area, if they haven't already failed their save, gain a +2 bonus to the roll - I can't think of any justification beyond a balancing factor.

Basically undead have a "turning class" for lack of a better title which is equal to 11 + HD + CHR or WIS modifier (whichever is higher) + Turn resistance + misc. (if any). The cleric has a positive energy attack which is d20 + 1/2 Cleric level + CHR modifier + misc. (if any) which is a 30' radius burst from the cleric. The damage (for now) is 2d6 + cleric level + CHR modifier. Any undead in the area of effect that the attack "misses" still takes half damage. A roll of 20 is a threat and has a x2 modifer for the crit.

If this is a burst effect, how can it "miss"?

 

[Bladesong]

Kerrick, 'misses' was in quotes for a reason, but rather than try to explain what that means just understand that if the cleric's attack roll is not high enough to fully affect the undead, the undead only takes half damage. To put it in terms those of you who are not using the "Players make all the rolls" idea from Unearthed Arcana might understand: it is the same as if the undead failed its saving throw, so it takes only half damage which is right in line with burst effects. Sorry if I confused anyone.

It is all about the "feel" or "flavor" of the game. My group was tired of having to encounter the same undead over and over because of the effects of turning. They love this damage method and never want to go back. The only thing that needs help is the amount of damage. A d6 per level was too much. 2d6 + level + CHR modifier does not seem to be enough at higher levels, so I am looking for non-complicated options. The level * CHR modifier is promising. I was also thinking that a d6 could be added at each level break of 5 (i.e. 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th). So at 15th level damage would be 4d6 + cleric level + CHR modifier. Any way, that is why I am here reading these; you all have good ideas whether you know it or not.

 

[Kerrick]

Kerrick, 'misses' was in quotes for a reason, but rather than try to explain what that means just understand that if the cleric's attack roll is not high enough to fully affect the undead, the undead only takes half damage. To put it in terms those of you who are not using the "Players make all the rolls" idea from Unearthed Arcana might understand: it is the same as if the undead failed its saving throw, so it takes only half damage which is right in line with burst effects. Sorry if I confused anyone.

I gotcha now.

A d6 per level was too much. 2d6 + level + CHR modifier does not seem to be enough at higher levels, so I am looking for non-complicated options. The level * CHR modifier is promising. I was also thinking that a d6 could be added at each level break of 5 (i.e. 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th). So at 15th level damage would be 4d6 + cleric level + CHR modifier.

If you don't like d6, you could use d4.... I think the 4d6+level+Cha would work too - gives opportunities for feats that add +1d6 damage.

 

[Grayhawk]

Based on my initial ideas plus the input from this thread, here's what my Turning Undead variant looks like in it's current incarnation:

'Turning Undead is a full round action and has a range of 30 feet.
You cannot turn something with more HD +turn resistance than twice your turning level.
If you turn something half your turning level it's destroyed.
Turning is a level check +Cha modifier vs a DC of undead's HD +Cha modifier +turn resistance +10.
You roll once for each type, starting with the weakest. As long as you succeed you keep rolling.
A failed check means you cannot turn any more that round.
Affected creatures are kept at bay at 10 feet for 1 minute, much like a summoned creature affected by a Magic Circle against Evil.
Any attack made against a turned undead breaks the turning for that individual.
You may Turn Undead 3 times per day. The Improved Turning feat grants 2 extra uses per day.'

Do you think that making it a full round action is too harsh?

 

[Kerrick]

Looks good to me, but I think I'd stick with being able to turn (3+Cha mod) times per day. If you're going to turn all types like you have, then a full-round action works; if you want to make one roll for all undead and apply it equally, a standard action would work better.

Turning is a level check +Cha modifier vs a DC of undead's HD +Cha modifier +turn resistance +10.

Have you tested this out? Seems like the undead's roll would be a little high... *Shrug*

 

[Grayhawk]

Have you tested this out? Seems like the undead's roll would be a little high... *Shrug*

The undead don't have a 'roll', they have a set DC set by the formula mentioned above. It hasn't been playtested, but let me run some examples and please tell me what you think:

These assume a cleric with a cha of 14. I'll list the level required for the cleric to be able to turn the undead, as well as the roll required at that level. At each increasing level, he'll need 1 less on his roll to turn that particular type of undead.

Human Warrior Skeleton (CR 1): Cleric must be 1st level to turn. Requires a roll of 8.

Ghoul (CR 1): Cleric must be 2nd level to turn. Requires a roll of 11.

Bugbear Zombie (CR 2): Cleric must be 3rd level to turn. Requires a roll of 11.

Wight (CR 3): Cleric must be 2nd level to turn. Requires a roll of 12.

Shadow (CR 3): Cleric must be 3rd level to turn. Requires a roll of 11.

Ghast (CR 3): Cleric must be 3rd level to turn. Requires a roll of 14.

Allip (CR 3): Cleric must be 3rd level to turn. Requires a roll of 15.

Vampire Spawn (CR 4): Cleric must be 3rd level to turn. Requires a roll of 13.

Chimera Skeleton (CR 4): Cleric must be 5th level to turn. Requires a roll of 12.

Wraith (CR 5): Cleric must be 4th level to turn. Requires a roll of 13.

Mummy (CR 5): Cleric must be 4th level to turn. Requires a roll of 14.

MM's Sample Ghost (CR 7): Cleric must be 5th level to turn. Requires a roll of 13.

Spectre (CR 7): Cleric must be 5th level to turn. Requires a roll of 14.

Greater Shadow (CR 8): Cleric must be 6th level to turn. Requires a roll of 15.

MM's Sample Lich (CR 13): Cleric must be 8th level to turn. Requires a roll of 16.

It seems that the cleric has about a 50% chance of turning an undead of about equal powerlevel, which was my goal (as well as how it was in earlier editions). For instance, while the cha 14 cleric can turn the sample lich on a roll of 16 at 8th level, he'll have to be 13th level (comparable to the lich's CR 13) to turn it on a roll of 11, or 50% of the time. Obviously, the numbers don't always add up as well as this, but I feel it's close enough.

What this system doesn't give you, is the slim chance of you turning something way out of your league on an extremely high roll. IMO, this can just as well be seen as a feature as it can be seen as a flaw.

Comments?

 

[Jondor_Battlehammer]

How about a will save. DC 10 +1/2 Cleric level + Wis mod. (Or Charisma).

level 1 DC 15
level 5 DC 17
level 10 DC 20
level 15 DC 23
level 20 DC 26

Assuming No feats, 18 Wisdom, and stat boosts going to Wisdom. No feats or items.

CR 1 Ghoul Will +5 (Avg. 16) Skeleton Will +2 (Avg. 13)
CR 5 Wraith Will +6 (Avg. 17) Vampire Spawn Will +5 (Avg. 16)
CR 10 Devourer Will +10 (Avg. 21) Dread Wraith Will +14 (Avg. 25)
CR 15 Lich Will +10 (Avg. 21) Elite Vampire Will +13 (Avg. 24)
CR 20 Nightcrawler/Mummy Lord (15th level Cleric) Will +23 (Avg. 34)


Looks workable up until very high levels. Even with feats/items granting a modest +5 to the turn check, the Mummy Lord should do well. No thought on any changes to the bonuses granted by Turn Resistance or feats that enhance turning.

As for effects, damage on a sucessful save, turned/destroyed on a failure? Damage could be 2d6 + 1/2 Cleric level, x2 if the creature would have been destroyed on a failed save. Or keep damage as is and add being turned if the undead would have been destroyed on a failed save.