D&D 5E Tweaking DMG Combat Options

[LittleElvis]

Isn't giving Advantage for flanking a bit absurd? In 4E, you'd get +2, "combat advantage," which is pretty darn good, but doesn't Advantage work out to something like a +5? Being surrounded is bad enough, but granting Advantage on top of that seems unnecessarily deadly.

 

[Cernor]

Isn't giving Advantage for flanking a bit absurd? In 4E, you'd get +2, "combat advantage," which is pretty darn good, but doesn't Advantage work out to something like a +5? Being surrounded is bad enough, but granting Advantage on top of that seems unnecessarily deadly.

On the other hand, combat in 5e is all about being quick and deadly. If you're in a fight (IRL) against two people and one of them is behind you while the other is in front of you, your position would be better described as "utterly screwed" rather than "disadvantageous".

 

[aramis erak]

Isn't giving Advantage for flanking a bit absurd? In 4E, you'd get +2, "combat advantage," which is pretty darn good, but doesn't Advantage work out to something like a +5? Being surrounded is bad enough, but granting Advantage on top of that seems unnecessarily deadly.

The amount of benefit varies by what the DC is.

For a DC 20, it's 39/400 (9.75%) instead of 1/20 (5%). So, not even worth a +1... but still almost doubling one's odds.
For a DC 19, it's 76/400 (19%) instead of 2/20 (10%)
DC 18, it's 111/400 (27.75%) instead of 3/20 (15%)
For a DC 11, 300/400 (75%) instead of 10/20 (50%) exactly the same change as a +5 on a 1d20 would give. It gets taller as the DC drops.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I'm going to try this out and see how it goes. Any thoughts, or opinions about the concept?

It's an interesting concept. It sure makes spells like Fog Cloud more interesting, since disadvantage will cancel double advantage, making it easier to fight while outnumbered as long as there's obscurement. (This also passes the verisimilitude sniff test--coordinating attacks in the dark or fog is harder than in the light.)

 

[LittleElvis]

The amount of benefit varies by what the DC is.

For a DC 20, it's 39/400 (9.75%) instead of 1/20 (5%). So, not even worth a +1... but still almost doubling one's odds.
For a DC 19, it's 76/400 (19%) instead of 2/20 (10%)
DC 18, it's 111/400 (27.75%) instead of 3/20 (15%)
For a DC 11, 300/400 (75%) instead of 10/20 (50%) exactly the same change as a +5 on a 1d20 would give. It gets taller as the DC drops.

Thanks. I read a mathematical breakdown on Advantage last night and it's like +4 or +5 most of the time (if you need to roll something fairly average to succeed). Giving +5 to hit a flanked target does strike me as totally absurd. Combat would become a game of flank (and avoid flanks) at all costs, turning combat into an intense minis chess game. I don't know why any DM would want to implement a rule like that.

 

[Nebulous]

I am working on a way to use the concept while abandoning the square occupation fixation. Outnumbering an enemy and being able to attack from multiple angles should be an advantage so I'm keeping that part. My compromise is that a combatant facing foes on more than one side grants advantage to those foes. Those sides DO NOT have to be directly opposite of one another.


So getting ganged up on and "wrapped" by an enemy force is bad and very easy for a more numerous foe to do in open terrain.

Part of me thinks that if you already have 2-4 PCs surrounding an enemy, you DO have a distinct advantage without needing more mechanical modifiers. But I also see how it should probably add a kernel of game mechanics as well for those that want the option. I guess this is where I wish the DMG had gone full Unearthed Arcana and given us lots of options, more-so than it did.

Here's a simple, and i like to think elegant idea: For every attacker surrounding the target beyond the first, pick one person (or creature) and add +1 damage per extra attacker. So if you have have four PCs surrounding an ogre, and exact spacing and diagonal positioning does not matter, hell, you don't even need a grid, then pick a character. If she hits, add +3 damage.

Another alternate rule that if you have an enemy surrounded, every PCs crit damage increases to 19-20. Alternately, you could do like with the damage modifier - for every PC attacking beyond the first, increase the crit range by one, so having four PCs surrounding an ogre would result in a crit range of 17-20 for one character picked.

 

[Paraxis]

Advantage is to much for flanking IMO too. A couple months ago I came up with this for flanking "If you are flanking an enemy you can use a bonus action to 'Help' another ally who is also flanking the same enemy." It works but there are plenty of other things people like to use their bonus actions on and people seem to forget about the rule, so now I use a Gang Up bonus instead every ally adjacent to the same enemy as you gives you a cumlative +1 bonus to hit. Faster, easier and mostly works in the monsters favor as it is usually them who have the greater numbers.

 

[Nebulous]

If it were me guys, i would not mess with the Adv/Dis mechanic at all. Stick to hit point damage as a measure of how lethal, not the chance to hit.

 

[77IM]

I like the idea, but calculating "proficiency bonus -1" in combat seems cumbersome. Consider instead, if a creature is surrounded by more than half the maximum combatants, the additional ones get advantage (defender picks which). For example ammedium creature surrounded by 7 attackers would pick 3 of them to get advantage. This rule also does not kick in until you are well and truly swamped, so mostly NPCs would use it against PCs.

 

[Blue Phoenix RPG]

Flanking done right. No "Advantage" but balancing + to hit and relaxed flank requirements.

Here's how I run flanking in my game:

There is no "advantage" to flanking, BUT I give creatures/players a +1 to hit bonus if they flank so it's enough to help but not unbalancing. Also, i have relaxed the definition of flank so that it's literally any "side" of the target, BUT not adjacent to the other player/creature that is "assisting". And, for each player that gives up an action (even a free one) I give +1 to ALL players/creatures assisting. So this means that if a target is flanked by all four sides and everyone is assisting/cooperating, they can all get a +4 to hit. This gives an awesome bonus without being unbalancing and gives players/creatures a nice bonus for ACs that are next to impossible to hit. Also remember that a target has essentially four sides and that the attackers need to be on a different "side" no matter how big the target is and the attackers are limited to a max bonus of +4 to hit.

This balance allows for improved hitting, NORMAL damage you would expect, and doesn't give an unnecessary "advantage".



Don't forget with my method (although the images shows them lined up), a player doesn't have to be directly across from another to get a flank status, just some where along one of the four "sides" but not standing next to the other PC.