Twilight, the Uncertain Knight, and the Distressed Damsel

Mark

CreativeMountainGames.com
I think that's just shorthand people are using to lump all of the Belle problems together. She's got a lot of them but the end result seems to be bad relationships and those seem to be getting the focus rather than her choices and low self-esteem issues which are the real concerns to warn young impressionable minds against.
 

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hexgrid

Explorer
I think that's just shorthand people are using to lump all of the Belle problems together. She's got a lot of them but the end result seems to be bad relationships and those seem to be getting the focus rather than her choices and low self-esteem issues which are the real concerns to warn young impressionable minds against.

In my case, I'm assuming that every thing said about the dysfunctional nature of the relationships in Twilight is true (I have no interest in reading it myself.)

I just don't think that people -including young girls- are so fragile that fictional dysfunctional relationships will cause them harm.
 

Mark

CreativeMountainGames.com
In my case, I'm assuming that every thing said about the dysfunctional nature of the relationships in Twilight is true (I have no interest in reading it myself.)

I just don't think that people -including young girls- are so fragile that fictional dysfunctional relationships will cause them harm.


I guess the idea is that educating young people as to what is harmful when they encounter questionable behavior in their entertainment material is worth trying if it reduces the number of persons who wind up involved in harmful relationships when they mature. I'm sure there is no cure-all but I suppose the thinking it that just leaving things to chance is less likely to steer a young person toward a happy adulthood.
 

The primary objection appears to be the abusive relationship angle. We have seen in this very thread that that particular argument is being accepted by those unwilling to actually read the book. Where-as, if one reads the book, one may come away from it with that opinion, or that that opinion is unfounded based on unintended metaphors based on the vampire element of the main male protagonist, or that the book is harmless drivel, or some other opinion.
I think you are severely conflating my reaction to my friends' experiences of this book with the "movement" to talk about this book. My reaction is very emotional, grounded in personal relationships with people who have been abused in relationships, one of whom was so affected by trying to read the book that she threw it against the wall and left it there for days, unable to make herself pick it up. As her friend, I became emotionally involved when she shared that story.

That is my prerogative as a human being who is a rational, careful scientist, but also a friend to people who have been through awful things. In this case, human pain trumps geek pluralism.

But there are a lot of people who simply have legitimate, analytical concerns about the content and are approaching it in a very measured way.

Look around, there are behavioral correlations drawn up by learned men and women in the fields of clinical psychology, gender studies, and half a dozen others. They are not pulling a witch-hunt. They are not advocating book burning. They are saying, (and I paraphrase) "This book showcases characters who would be very worrying in the real world. We think parents should take an interest and could use it as a teachable moment with their children to talk about the problem of abusive relationships that is unfortunately endemic to our society."

That is not, as the D&D witch-hunt was, blaming the books for abuse. Actually, some have put it the other way around, that emotionally and physically abusive relationships are so prevalent in our culture that the books are more a product than a cause. The books are not a problem, per se, and can actually be a help. Since the single most at-risk population for emotional, sexual, and physical abuse is reading these books like they are the Gospels of Romance, they are probably a good way to start a discussion. The discussion could conclude that Vampire boy is OK and the girl just needs to grow up a bit. That conclusion would be just as acceptable to me as "These books are an example of what not to do." I just think the discussion should take place.

If that discussion took place more often, I wouldn't see so many girls come to campus with no understanding of the warning signs of an abusive guy. Maybe I could go a semester without having a girl show up to a class desperately trying to cover up bruises.

Obviously, I have a personal stake in this that may be clouding my judgment. But don't use my quick judgment as a way to dismiss the legitimate concerns of others. Educate yourself on the issues before throwing out the reasoned conclusions of experts in the field of human relationships and gender issues.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Educate yourself on the issues before throwing out the reasoned conclusions

If you honestly have an issue with the books without reading them, and you believe the advice you gave, I suggest your read the friggen books. In fact, it's such a fast read, you would have been done with the first book already had you foregone reading this thread and writing all those replies.

It's really sound advice to say read the book and then draw a conclusion, rather than listening to others (ANY others) and drawing a conclusion.

There is really no good excuse for not educating yourself and actually reading the first book, if you care about the issue. There isn't a whole lot to say beyond that. It's the kind of advice that holds for not just this topic by many others. To really understand an issue, reading the thing the issue is about is the first place to start.
 

catsclaw227

First Post
If you honestly have an issue with the books without reading them, and you believe the advice you gave, I suggest your read the friggen books. In fact, it's such a fast read, you would have been done with the first book already had you foregone reading this thread and writing all those replies.

It's really sound advice to say read the book and then draw a conclusion, rather than listening to others (ANY others) and drawing a conclusion.
FQFT, with some XP.

I did read the first 2 books. Wait, check that, I trudged through the first three books.

trudge: To move with purpose.

You know, I don't have a terribly negative view, but if my daughter acted like Bella, I would be upset with her... check that... disappointed in her. I asked myself "why would she agree to do that" or "what is it about him that makes her think this is OK" once or twice, but I imagine that's pretty consistent with typical teenage girl decision-making.

Ladies, please, chime in here.... if I am wrong, I will stand corrected.

And, BTW, teenage boy thinkin' too.

Who doesn't make bone-headed decisions, almost wholly based upon emotion, when they are that age?

Girls fall for the "wrong guy" (usually labeled as such by the slightly jealous guy-friend who secretly wants to be her BF -- guys, come one have you ever been one? I have. Once.)

Guys say yes to stupid stuff like drugs or doing a prank that gets them in trouble, his friends doing the ol' "come on dude, go for it!" (in some other language or differently phrased, but basically the same thing), or makes an ass out of himself trying to be cool.

Bella has strong emotions for Edward and makes some bad decisions because of it, but she is a teenage girl. They're not always good, and it shouldn't glorify or paint these as right, but from what I read, the books don't do that.

Whatever... I was neutral going in and neutral coming out. I won't read the rest of the series, I have a stack of much better books (IMHO) to read instead.
 

If you honestly have an issue with the books without reading them, and you believe the advice you gave, I suggest your read the friggen books. In fact, it's such a fast read, you would have been done with the first book already had you foregone reading this thread and writing all those replies.

It's really sound advice to say read the book and then draw a conclusion, rather than listening to others (ANY others) and drawing a conclusion.

There is really no good excuse for not educating yourself and actually reading the first book, if you care about the issue. There isn't a whole lot to say beyond that. It's the kind of advice that holds for not just this topic by many others. To really understand an issue, reading the thing the issue is about is the first place to start.
I tried to make this clear in the last post and leave off of this, but I'll try again... For me, the issue isn't just about these particular books.

I have several friends who have been abused, one for a very long relationship before she finally came to her senses. And that's just the ones who will admit to it, which is a small percentage by most estimates. This is not an issue where I can remain cool, rational, and unaffected. Sitting idly by and watching the beginnings of what has all the characteristics of an abusive relationship again is not likely to be relaxing for me, even through the lens of a book. A little too close to real life for me.

Leaving aside the fact that the first Twilight book traumatized a friend by spawning a nasty walk through her own memories (which is enough evidence for me all by itself that there might be a problem there), I also read a few passages quoted in the context of comparisons to domestic abuse literature. I needed to take a walk to calm down. Reading the whole book would probably give me an ulcer. The passages in question read like narration of watching one of my old friends with the guy who used her as a punching bag for 2 years. Even if we could categorize reading the whole book as a growth experience for me (doubtful), why put my wife through me being that miserable to live with for an indeterminate period?

You seem like a good guy, but I'm going to take the advice of a good RL friend who also has actual RL experience with the issue at hand before the advice of someone on a messageboard, sorry.

I will, however, leave off talking about it. You are correct insofar as I don't need to be on a soapbox about it. Mainly because it's upsetting me further just typing about it.
 


You guys just don't quit. I was trying to bow out.

The book basically gave her a flashback but you think the book has no similarity or relationship to her experience?

Are you being deliberately obtuse? Or is this standard kneejerk geek defensiveness of all things vaguely geeky, regardless of their merit or lack thereof?
 

Mark Chance

Boingy! Boingy!
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Or is this standard kneejerk geek defensiveness of all things vaguely geeky, regardless of their merit or lack thereof?

Quite obviously, your contributions to this thread have been reviewed by the Committee Regarding Acceptable Posts and found wanting. I'm sure once you've actually read the books and changed your opinion to match those of the committee members that all will be well.
 

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