SoldierBlue
First Post
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Two game concepts that survive everywhere but D&D...
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Stormonu
Legend
Action points fill this role in 4E, to a degree (there are paragon powers that act as stunts as well as the base use of action points).
People have been using critical location hits since early 1E; the early Dragon magazine had a rather vicious and detailed critical hit system, and there have been many others that have cropped up in official, but always optional, books.
I think there are two reasons it's never made it into the base rules - the first being the extra bookkeeping it adds (mostly that the DM has to track on monsters, as if he/she weren't tracking enough already) and the second being the save-or-suck sort of (permanent) effects they tend to apply to characters.
I imagine a good number of players would rather retire/kill a character who permanently loses a limb and suffers a mechanical penalty and start a new one than continue with such a flawed character. While I've seen a number of players create such flawed characters at the start of a game, usually they do so because its simply a colorful narration with little/no game effect, or they've garnered some other bonus/advantage by starting thusly maimed.
Dice4Hire
First Post
About critical hits. D&D is generally notthat kind of game. Sure there are crits, but they have low effects, though in 4E at higheer levels, they can be a lot of daamge.
In genral D&D does nto want things to oswingy, with one high level opponent going down from one hit (like the proverbial hit tothe head many systems have). If you hit it, something dies. Hit the eye= blind, Hit the knee=lame.
Might work for some, but D&D jsut does not use it.
Heroic subsystems are not as needed as much as D&D is more heroic all over. D&D is designed to be heroic and cool every round, not just in limited circumstances, like grittier games. But again, the systems are here, just not as strong as some systems. 4E and action points (and paragon paths) are a great example.
D&D has both of these systems, and has had them for quite a while. Not as strong as some systems, but still there, so it seem hard to say they do nto exist.
In genral D&D does nto want things to oswingy, with one high level opponent going down from one hit (like the proverbial hit tothe head many systems have). If you hit it, something dies. Hit the eye= blind, Hit the knee=lame.
Might work for some, but D&D jsut does not use it.
Heroic subsystems are not as needed as much as D&D is more heroic all over. D&D is designed to be heroic and cool every round, not just in limited circumstances, like grittier games. But again, the systems are here, just not as strong as some systems. 4E and action points (and paragon paths) are a great example.
D&D has both of these systems, and has had them for quite a while. Not as strong as some systems, but still there, so it seem hard to say they do nto exist.
unan oranis
First Post
The current critical hit system in dnd doesn't count?
You get max damage, your weapon has a unique amount of extra dice to throw in on top of that, critical hit is a trigger for a bunch of stuff... to me it seems like it has a decent amount of meat on the bone.
You get max damage, your weapon has a unique amount of extra dice to throw in on top of that, critical hit is a trigger for a bunch of stuff... to me it seems like it has a decent amount of meat on the bone.
Stormonu
Legend
Broken ribs, losing fingers or eyes, hacking off limbs, twisted ankles, bleeding wounds ... those are the type of criticals I believe are being discussed, not just extra damage.
Well, given that the current main system has bleeding (ongoing damage), twisted ankles (slowed), loss of sight (blinded), all going on... just not part of the critical system for the most part... I'm not entirely sure what we're missing.
And for stunts: Page 42.
Cheers!
Lanefan
Victoria Rules
Critical hits for extra damage are in the game. If removal of limbs etc. is added to the crit. system then what extra use are vorpal or sharpness weapons?
That said, I also use a homebrew scarring system - every now and then (supposed to be at end of each adventure, but in reality it's more like whenever I remember to do it) I do some rolling to determine whether anyone has picked up significant scarring, how severe, and where. Particularly severe scarring can have detrimental effects, usually to dex. A Heal spell almost always removes all scars automatically.
As for heroic whatevers or action points, I find parties generally have enough going for them they don't need this as well. If I gave such things to parties I'd 99% certainly give 'em to their opponents as well, accomplishing nothing other than a whole lot of unwanted power creep for the game and equally-unwanted extra work for me.
Lan-"scarred for life"-efan
That said, I also use a homebrew scarring system - every now and then (supposed to be at end of each adventure, but in reality it's more like whenever I remember to do it) I do some rolling to determine whether anyone has picked up significant scarring, how severe, and where. Particularly severe scarring can have detrimental effects, usually to dex. A Heal spell almost always removes all scars automatically.
As for heroic whatevers or action points, I find parties generally have enough going for them they don't need this as well. If I gave such things to parties I'd 99% certainly give 'em to their opponents as well, accomplishing nothing other than a whole lot of unwanted power creep for the game and equally-unwanted extra work for me.
Lan-"scarred for life"-efan
ppaladin123
Adventurer
Some scars (on the face for instance) might affect charisma-based rolls too...maybe diplomacy negatively and intimidation positively.
Lord Zardoz
Explorer
D&D uses hit points. The entire purpose of HP is to provide an abstraction for the accumulated damage suffered in combat. A critical hit location table does tend to run entirely counter to that reasoning.
The only benefit such tables will apply is for a small level of narrative embellishment, and possibly for having a player accumulate penalties so that his overall combat effectiveness does not go from 100% effective at 1 hp left to dead / dying at zero hp.
2nd Edition D&D did provide for a critical hit table with the Advanced Combat and Tactics book. That book basically had the same kind of crits as 3rd edition + series of hit location tables based on piercing / slashing / bludgeoning damage.
That did lead to one spectacular moment where I landed a natural 20 critical hit on a lance charge on a PC. The pc had full hp, somewhere around 35 to 50 hp. The damage alone put him past -10 hp from the Charge multipier and the crit multiplier. The critical hit table came up with Location, Chest, Severity 12 (on 1d12). That result was "'Chest destroyed, target dead". The character was very emphatically dead.
In any event, a critical hit table or system of any sort is a much greater risk to the players. Most monsters have less HP and are generally less durable then the players. The DM will land many more crits on the PC's then not. If the critical hit table used has some nasty penalties, you will mostly be applying them to the players.
END COMMUNICATION
The only benefit such tables will apply is for a small level of narrative embellishment, and possibly for having a player accumulate penalties so that his overall combat effectiveness does not go from 100% effective at 1 hp left to dead / dying at zero hp.
2nd Edition D&D did provide for a critical hit table with the Advanced Combat and Tactics book. That book basically had the same kind of crits as 3rd edition + series of hit location tables based on piercing / slashing / bludgeoning damage.
That did lead to one spectacular moment where I landed a natural 20 critical hit on a lance charge on a PC. The pc had full hp, somewhere around 35 to 50 hp. The damage alone put him past -10 hp from the Charge multipier and the crit multiplier. The critical hit table came up with Location, Chest, Severity 12 (on 1d12). That result was "'Chest destroyed, target dead". The character was very emphatically dead.
In any event, a critical hit table or system of any sort is a much greater risk to the players. Most monsters have less HP and are generally less durable then the players. The DM will land many more crits on the PC's then not. If the critical hit table used has some nasty penalties, you will mostly be applying them to the players.
END COMMUNICATION
Psychotic Jim
First Post
Besides what's already been mentioned, the conception of a hero point system I'm most familiar with is in Mutants and Masterminds. You're awarded hero points for facing complications, roleplaying the genre, getting into character, doing heroics, etc. In this way, it's a way of rewarding good play.
Such rewards often in may D&D groups take the form of additional XP awarded to individual players. When I've offered to institute a hero point-like system in D&D, my players have just told me that giving them XP will do the job. And some have told me that they always forget to use stuff like action points in D&D. they will just forget about it. Perhaps there is just something here for group about keeping the game as simple as possible outweighing the need for critical hits or hero/action points?
Such rewards often in may D&D groups take the form of additional XP awarded to individual players. When I've offered to institute a hero point-like system in D&D, my players have just told me that giving them XP will do the job. And some have told me that they always forget to use stuff like action points in D&D. they will just forget about it. Perhaps there is just something here for group about keeping the game as simple as possible outweighing the need for critical hits or hero/action points?
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