D&D 5E two things about D&D that could be more interesting

[evilbob]

A Fighter could also choose to play against type. You just need to

No. I've done all those things. These are my conclusions. You can disagree but please stop trying to "fix" D&D for me when it's not broken. You've gotten distracted by the word "type." I was saying "job." Job is right. D&D starts by telling you to think about your job. Other games start by telling you to think about who you are as a person. (For many people, that's the same thing. Maybe you're one. That's great.) Either way it doesn't matter because I can fix that part for me, like I already said.

It sounds like you want a system that lets a single character cover all the bases

No, no, no. Read the first post. "And it's NOT about being able to do anything"

 

[Psikerlord#]

Hmm re ability checks I suggest going back to OSR and using roll equal or under stat instead of a DC. That way you can then say if you roll more than 1.5 x under, it's a big success, and more than 1.5 over (or 20) it's a terrible failure.

Re combat I agree with an earlier poster that roll damage at same time as to hit, and you kinda get degrees of success.

Re classes - that is the fundamental D&D character definition. Swapping that for something like the shadowrun skill system would not be D&D anymore I think. Not saying it wouldn't be awesome - it just wouldn't be D&D. In any event, with feats, you can get very far away from your starting class, really. Add in MCing and you can go anywhere, pretty much. Personally I like niche protection and classes do that incredibly well (excluding MCing, which I do).

 

[Anaxander]

Simple and fast anti-binary hack:
If you fail the check, but roll more than 10 on the d20, you fail with a boon or opportunity
If you succeed, but roll less than 10, you succeed with a threat or complication

Many variants possible

 

[evilbob]

Simple and fast anti-binary hack:
If you fail the check, but roll more than 10 on the d20, you fail with a boon or opportunity
If you succeed, but roll less than 10, you succeed with a threat or complication

Thanks for the suggestion. I don't think this would work as a general rule though because the vast majority of DCs in D&D (including AC and skill checks) are between 13 and 15. (If they aren't, it sure feels that way.)

 

[Anaxander]

Thanks for the suggestion. I don't think this would work as a general rule though because the vast majority of DCs in D&D (including AC and skill checks) are between 13 and 15. (If they aren't, it sure feels that way.)

Well, it depends on what you're aiming for.

If you want to have generally binary outcomes with sometimes an additional effect this is an easy implementation. The fighter in full plate with Dex 10 still won't make his Acrobatics check, but at least he gets *something* when he rolls well. Conversely, the rogue with Dex 20 continues to beat simple DCs, but at least his successes are complicated when he rolls badly.

If you want to have additional outcomes in 50% of the cases you could rule that you gain a boon/opportunity if you fail and roll uneven on a d20 and that you gain a threat/complication if you succeed and roll uneven.

If you want to decrease their occurrence you could simply rule that they happen at (a) fixed number(s). For example, you gain a boon/opportunity when you fail and roll a 5 on a d20, and you gain a threat/complication if you succeed and roll a 15.

If you want to make this more complex you could set ranges of boons and threats at set numbers.

 

[Tectuktitlay]

Simple and fast anti-binary hack:
If you fail the check, but roll more than 10 on the d20, you fail with a boon or opportunity
If you succeed, but roll less than 10, you succeed with a threat or complication

Many variants possible

I think an easier solution would simply be to implement how some of 5e already does implement it in certain abilities (drow poison and similar abilities): If you beat the DC by 5 or more, it's a minor boon, if you beat it by 10 or more it's a major boon. If you fail the DC by 5 or more it's a minor complication, if you fail by 10 or more it's a major complication.

Going by just the result on the die itself will make for many situations where if you succeed you ALWAYS have a boon, or if you fail you ALWAYS have a complication, because of the DC and your skill's value. Which defeats the purpose of it being a non-binary result. It ends up being an even more swingy binary result.

Basing it on the roll of the die actually, imho, makes it more complicated, not less complicated. Basing it off the target DC is much easier to implement at all levels of the game on the fly. If you want to just ignore minor boons, it gets even easier. It's trivial to add and subtract 10 to the target DC to figure out when a boon or complication takes place. DC is 17? On a 27 or higher, you get a boon, on a 7 or lower you get a complication. Easy as pie.

 

[Anaxander]

But that system rewards even more good rolls and punishes bad ones. It remains binary

 

[evilbob]

If you beat the DC by 5 or more, it's a minor boon, if you beat it by 10 or more it's a major boon. If you fail the DC by 5 or more it's a minor complication, if you fail by 10 or more it's a major complication.

This is what I posted originally.

 

[Tectuktitlay]

But that system rewards even more good rolls and punishes bad ones. It remains binary

That's not what binary means. Binary means on a roll you either succeed, or you fail, period. That's it. Two results. Binary.

Your system using the result on the die is taking a lot of the binary results and making them even swingier. I explained how.

Ok, something concrete as an example: DC 15 check, you have a 4 in the skill. On a die roll of 10 or less, you will fail the roll, on a die result of 11 or higher, you will succeed on the roll. NORMALLY, that would be strictly binary. You either succeed, or fail. Using your system, it is a binary result that is even more swingy. That is to say, there are still only two possible results: either you succeed with a boon, or you fail with a complication. Binary.

Same system, different scenario: DC 20 check, you have a 4 in the skill. On a die roll of 10 or less, you fail with a complication, on a die roll or 11-15 you fail without a complication, on a die roll of 16 or higher, you succeed with a boon. Trinary result. But note that you will ALWAYS succeed with a boon, and usually fail with a complication.

Same system, different scenario: DC 10 check, you have a 4 in the skill. On a die roll of 5 or less, you fail with a complication. On a die roll of 6-10 you succeed without a boon. On a die roll of 11 or higher, you succeed with a boon. Trinary result. But note that you will ALWAYS fail with a complication, and almost always succeed with a boon.

The other system, if you succeed or fail by 5 or more, 10 or more, etc: Same first example. DC 15, 4 in the skill. On a 10 or less on the die, you fail. On a 6 or lower (DC 10), you fail with a complication. On 1 (DC 5), you fail with a major complication. On an 11 or higher you succeed. On a 16 or higher (DC 20), you succeed with a boon. You cannot get a major boon because you are not skilled enough (DC 25). FIVE possible results.

Second example, DC 20, 4 in the skill. On a 15 or lower die roll, you fail. On a 11 or lower (DC 15), you fail with a complication. On a 6 or lower (DC 10), you fail with a major complication. On a 16 or higher, you succeed. You cannot get a boon (DC 25) or major boon (DC 30). FOUR possible results.

Third example, DC 10, 4 in the skill. On a 5 or lower die roll, you fail. On a 1 (DC 5), you fail with a complication. You cannot fail with a major complication (DC 0). On a 6 or higher you succeed. On an 11 or higher (DC 15), you succeed with a boon. On a 16 or higher (DC 20), you succeed with a major boon (DC 30). FIVE possible results.

But really, I think you misunderstand what binary means. It means either yes, you succeed, or no, you do not. Yes/No are the only two possible answers. Binary.

The system you propose take the binary system and makes it even more swingy, where most successes are MORE successful, and most failures are MORE failures.

A system based off of DC only rewards better rolls or punishes worse rolls based on the actual skill level of the character. The more skilled you are, the more likely you are to get boons or major boons. The less skilled you are, the more likely you are to get complications or major complications.

Regardless, the DC-based scaling system is definitely, absolutely, in no way a binary system. It is explicitly NOT binary.

In fact, you can easily tweak it to mean the following, if you want it to more explicitly be non-binary: If you make the DC, it is only somewhat successful (if jumping to catch a cliff, you get both hands, but you don't land on your feet on the other side, you are now effectively climbing the cliff but almost at the top). If you beat the DC by 5 or more, it is a total success (you landed on the opposite side on your feet). If you beat the DC by 10 or more, it is a total success with a boon (you landed on the opposite side on your feet, and get a move action!). If you fail the roll, it is only somewhat a failure (you might succeed a little, so on if jumping to catch a cliff, you might be hanging on with one hand precariously; you are climbing the cliff, but hanging on for dear life). If you fail by 5 or more, it is a total failure (you are falling down the side of a cliff). If you fail by 10 or more, it is a failure with a complication (you are falling off the side of the cliff, and you have disadvantage on all rolls because you are tumbling uncontrollably as you fall).

So no, sorry, but the DC-based system is in no way a binary system, at all. It explicitly has more than two possible outcomes, and the odds of any given outcome are better or worse based on the actual skill of the character in question.

 

[Giltonio_Santos]

2. All actions in D&D result in 100% success or 0% failure (no moderation)

D&D attack rolls are not 100% success or failure. A fighter with 16 Str fighting with a longsword in one hand can deal anywhere from 0 to 11 damage with an attack. A fireball spell deals 8 to 48 damage and half that number in a successful save. Your statement describes the outcome of d20 rolls in D&D, but not the mechanic of action resolution as a whole, which includes more than d20 rolls.

Skill checks, on the other hand, I agree that can work in a very binary way. I've solved that in my own games by trying to design encounters of exploration and interaction as things that cannot be solved by a single skill check. And let's not forget about knowledge-related skills: most DMs I know are used to increase or reduce the amount of information shared with the players based in the number they get. It's not binary at all.