Two Weapon Fighting and Multiple Attacks from BAB

[Hypersmurf]

"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first."

Now, interestingly, this means that by a strict reading, someone with a Str of 8, a Dex of 20, and a BAB of +6, for example, cannot stab someone with his dagger and then throw it at someone else.

His bonus on the stab would be +5 (+6 -1 Str), and his bonus on the second attack would be +6 (+1 +5 Dex). Since the attacks must be made in order from highest bonus to lowest, the +6 attack cannot occur after the +5 attack.

-Hyp.

 

[JoeBlank]

"If you get multiple attacks because your base attack bonus is high enough, you must make the attacks in order from highest bonus to lowest. If you are using two weapons, you can strike with either weapon first. If you are using a double weapon, you can strike with either part of the weapon first."

Now, interestingly, this means that by a strict reading, someone with a Str of 8, a Dex of 20, and a BAB of +6, for example, cannot stab someone with his dagger and then throw it at someone else.

His bonus on the stab would be +5 (+6 -1 Str), and his bonus on the second attack would be +6 (+1 +5 Dex). Since the attacks must be made in order from highest bonus to lowest, the +6 attack cannot occur after the +5 attack.

-Hyp. emphasis added

Because the quoted rule referst to base attack bonus and then merely "bonus" later in the same sentence, one could interpret this to mean that the "bonus" is refering to base attack bonus. Therefore, the rule means that if your BAB is +6, you get attacks at +6/+1, and must use the +6 before you use the +1.

That would make more sense. To interpret it to mean that you total bonuses and then attack in that order would mean that the dwarf might have to attack the orc before attacking another opponent, or the ranger might have to attack his favored enemy before moving on to other opponents, because they get a bonus to attack against those opponents.

Does that make sense?

 

[Datt]

Btw, does anyone have a clue why there's not a fourth feat for a fourth attack when the BAB reaches 16? I can't imagine balance issues...

They do. It is called Perfect Two Weapon Fighting and it is an Epic feat.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Does that make sense?

Of course it does... but it yields another oddity.

When you make a second iterative attack with your primary weapon, you actually use a lower BAB figure. (The BAB tables illustrate this as +6/+1, for example.)

When you make a second off-hand attack through ITWF, however, you use your highest BAB, and incur a -5 penalty on the roll. So while the total bonus is much the same as the total bonus for the second iterative attack with the primary weapon, you are using a higher BAB figure to calculate it.

Thus, if you interpret "highest bonus to lowest" to refer to the BAB you are using, then strictly, you must make every off-hand attack you are permitted before making your second iterative primary attack.

If your BAB is +11 and you have GTWF, the following options are available:

P1/O1/O2/O3/P2/P3
O1/P1/O2/O3/P2/P3
O1/O2/P1/O3/P2/P3
O1/O2/O3/P1/P2/P3

But you couldn't, for example, go P1/O1/P2/O2/P3/O3.

Also, if you're making an extra attack through Rapid Shot - also based off highest BAB - it must occur before the second iterative primary attack.

Stab-Stab-Stab-Throw with a dagger using three iterative attacks and Rapid Shot is not possible. It would have to be Stab-Throw-Quickdraw-Stab-Stab.

-Hyp.

 

[Ranger REG]

Btw, does anyone have a clue why there's not a fourth feat for a fourth attack when the BAB reaches 16? I can't imagine balance issues...

You'll have to ask Wizards. Personally, having a total of 7 attacks using unarmed strikes is powerful enough. Any further and you might as well pick up Whirlwind Attack (lets you attack up to 8 opponents adjacent to you, using your highest attack bonus ... or 6 opponents using hexes, hehehehehe).

 

[Ranger REG]

Is there any ruling about the timing of those attacks?

Beyond the fact that all must be resolved on your turn, no. Player's choice.

I'm sure that for each specific hand you go from lowest to highest penalty.

That's up to the player. For example, perhaps it is convenient to resolve all primary hand attacks before off-hand attacks to resolve weapon damage, or resolve from highest attack bonus to lowest bonus, make note as to which is primary hand and which is off hand.

Are you allowed to swap between hands as you see fit?

At the start of your turn prior to making an attack roll, you can declare a switch between primary hand and off hand. In 3e, that can only happen if one has Ambidexterity. In 3.5e, one must have TWF feat.

Are you allowed to start with your off-hand? Or does your first attack decide what your primary/off-hand is?

Again, player's discretion, as long you declare them to your DM on your turn.

 

[Hypersmurf]

That's up to the player. For example, perhaps it is convenient to resolve all primary hand attacks before off-hand attacks to resolve weapon damage, or resolve from highest attack bonus to lowest bonus, make note as to which is primary hand and which is off hand.

The rules for the Full Attack Action specifically state that attacks must occur from highest bonus to lowest bonus.

It doesn't define exactly what it means by that, but once you've determined what bonus it's referring to, it's not discretionary.

-Hyp.