UK, Have you ever seen the Primal Order Books from WOTC?

[zen_hydra]

I am not sure of which of these forums you most frequently visit, but as the creator of one of the most anticipated gaming books that I have yet to see all of, I was wondering what if anything, you thought of the old WOTC Primal Order Series of books that dealt with the same kind of issues that you are addressing with your book(s)?

I really loved the Primal Order series, and wish that WOTC had used those books as a jumping point for their books on Epic Level and Godly flavored works. I had hoped that someone out there in the void of web-space would have saved me the effort and converted the Primal Order books to D&D 3.X / D20, but seems that most people feel like I do (in that they would rather someone else do all of the work).

So, UK, if you have read these wonderful works, have they in any way influenced your Immortals books, and if so, how?

 

[Mark CMG]

Is UK mean to be Upper Krust?

 

[jdrakeh]

I had hoped that someone out there in the void of web-space would have saved me the effort and converted the Primal Order books to D&D 3.X / D20, but seems that most people feel like I do (in that they would rather someone else do all of the work).

I'm not 'UK' (whoever that may be), but if I'd known you back in 2001, I could have given you a full set of the Primal Order books for free. As it turns out, I think that I sold them to a used bookstore for something like $3.00 a pop (I couldn't get any of my friends at the time to take them).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey zen_hydra matey!

I am not sure of which of these forums you most frequently visit,

The House Rules Forum.

but as the creator of one of the most anticipated gaming books that I have yet to see all of,

I appreciate the love. I would have settled for "one of the most belaboured gaming books..." given how long its taken me to realise it.

I was wondering what if anything, you thought of the old WOTC Primal Order Series of books that dealt with the same kind of issues that you are addressing with your book(s)?

I thought they were good books, I should really do a review on my website sometime.

I picked them up a few years ago when someone on the boards mentioned them to me. I had never heard of them prior to about 2002/3, but luckily I managed to grab them (Primal Order, Knights and Pawns) on ebay.

I really loved the Primal Order series, and wish that WOTC had used those books as a jumping point for their books on Epic Level and Godly flavored works.

I'm not sure the Realm based approach is the best option for D&D. Also the Primal Order approach to the relationship between mortals and immortals does seem a bit black and white, I prefer the idea that mortals don't necessarily need to be deities to battle deities, which is basically the advantage primal gives you.

I had hoped that someone out there in the void of web-space would have saved me the effort and converted the Primal Order books to D&D 3.X / D20, but seems that most people feel like I do (in that they would rather someone else do all of the work).

I thought, part of the appeal of the Primal Order was that it could be used with any system and to an extent the rules didn't need converting.

So, UK, if you have read these wonderful works, have they in any way influenced your Immortals books, and if so, how?

To be honest they haven't really influenced me that much, if at all. But I am sure there are a lot of incidental similarities since we are covering much the same material.

The primary focus of TPO is in divinity through realm acquisition. Whereas the Immortals Handbook uses a 'Power & Glory' approach; with power being the acquisition of quintessence (think Highlanders 'Quickening') and glory being essentially worship (which introduces the worship points system). These two sides of the same coin (power and glory) mesh seamlessly. A deity like Demogorgon may be 90% power, 10% glory whereas Odin might be 20% power, 80% glory in terms of how their divinity has been gained. While each has their idiosyncracies power and glory ostensibly add up to the same thing...divinity.

 

[zen_hydra]

Upper_Krust,

Maybe it has been to many years since I dusted the core book off and read it (The Primal Order, that is), I was thinking, that at least at the lower end, mortals could be a threat to primal using entities (gods). I think that the hierarchy was godling, demigod, supported demigod, and on up to UBER GOD. The rules seemed to be made to be "meta" rules, in that they could be layed down over many different systems. If I recall, the creatures in TPO: Pawns were supposed to be on par with the type of epic nasties you have cranked out (when you did the conversions to AD&D these things were epic nightmares and some of them had primal energy; thus making the at least godlings). The similarities I see/saw between TPO and your project are the scale (going from where mere mortal ends and epic/divine begins up to Over-Power), both projects seemed to start with the bestiary (I am pretty sure Pawns was published before TPO), and most importantly that there is a quantifiable yard stick on godly power-level.

Please, smite me if I am wrong.

It was like this quote from the movie Pi (which I found quite enjoyable):
Sol Robeson: "Hold on. You have to slow down. You're losing it. You have to take a breath. Listen to yourself. You're connecting a computer bug I had with a computer bug you might have had and some religious hogwash. You want to find the number 216 in the world; you will be able to find it everywhere. 216 steps from a mere street corner to your front door. 216 seconds you spend riding on the elevator. When your mind becomes obsessed with anything, you will filter everything else out and find that thing everywhere."

I am not obsessing but perhaps I am seeing similarities, because I loved TPO (back in the day) and I want your project to be as good (if not better, since it is focused on only one game system).

Anyway thanks for the response, and I hope to see more of your work soon.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Upper_Krust,

Hello again matey!

Maybe it has been to many years since I dusted the core book off and read it (The Primal Order, that is), I was thinking, that at least at the lower end, mortals could be a threat to primal using entities (gods).

As best I can recall (off the top of my head), once something is primally backed it is pretty much an auto trumping of mortals.

I think that the hierarchy was godling, demigod, supported demigod, and on up to UBER GOD.

The hierarchy was stacked well enough in and of itself, but that did little to facilitate mortal-immortal interaction.

The rules seemed to be made to be "meta" rules, in that they could be layed down over many different systems.

Well the key to that is to create something extreneous to all systems that works in tandem with these systems. The worship points system works in this fashion as well. You could use it with any rpg with minimal if any changes.

If I recall, the creatures in TPO: Pawns were supposed to be on par with the type of epic nasties you have cranked out (when you did the conversions to AD&D these things were epic nightmares and some of them had primal energy; thus making the at least godlings).

The Pawns book was weird because I couldn't see even the most powerful monsters therein taking on any of the deities in the Knights book. It was a cool epic bestiary, but the monsters were not very challenging to TPO immortals as I recall.

The similarities I see/saw between TPO and your project are the scale (going from where mere mortal ends and epic/divine begins up to Over-Power),

...yeah but I don't stop at Over-power, I go all the way*.

*[dons Austin Powers voice] Yeah baby!

both projects seemed to start with the bestiary (I am pretty sure Pawns was published before TPO), and most importantly that there is a quantifiable yard stick on godly power-level.

To be honest I would have rather had my main rules book out first, but I am not going to change the schedule at this juncture.

Please, smite me if I am wrong.

Thats not a good idea, I have Cosmic Smiting.

It was like this quote from the movie Pi (which I found quite enjoyable):

Sol Robeson: "Hold on. You have to slow down. You're losing it. You have to take a breath. Listen to yourself. You're connecting a computer bug I had with a computer bug you might have had and some religious hogwash. You want to find the number 216 in the world; you will be able to find it everywhere. 216 steps from a mere street corner to your front door. 216 seconds you spend riding on the elevator. When your mind becomes obsessed with anything, you will filter everything else out and find that thing everywhere."

I'll have to check that movie out.

I am not obsessing but perhaps I am seeing similarities, because I loved TPO (back in the day) and I want your project to be as good (if not better, since it is focused on only one game system).

If I didn't think it was going to be the best Immortal Rules ever I wouldn't even bother trying. Same with the Epic Bestiary, although thats so big now that you'll have to wait until you see all three volumes to encompass the full effect of it.

Anyway thanks for the response, and I hope to see more of your work soon.

The revised Bestiary has been taken up a notch, so watch out for those monsters...if you thought the Neutronium Golem was tough before...

 

[Anabstercorian]

"Neutronium Golem" is a household word over at my living group these days, but not in a terribly flattering way... I can only imagine it will get worse!

 

[Grover Cleaveland]

I tried to adapt The Primal Order to the 3e Deities & Demigods system out of curiosity, but they're not very compatible at all.

The main difference is that power in D&Dg is based entirely on rank, while in TPO divine power comes from planes and worshippers (primarily) and rank is only incidental, the titles fairly arbitrary. A lesser god in TPO might be more powerful than a greater god.

I can see adopting some of the D&Dg rules into a TPO campaign - for example, assigning costs in primal base and flux for the various divine salient abilities - but a complete conversion would be very difficult. You'd have to state the specific amounts of primal base required to advance a divine rank, and that's fairly redundant since the amount of primal base and flux a god has already determines how powerful it is.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey GC!

I tried to adapt The Primal Order to the 3e Deities & Demigods system out of curiosity, but they're not very compatible at all.

The main difference is that power in D&Dg is based entirely on rank, while in TPO divine power comes from planes and worshippers (primarily) and rank is only incidental, the titles fairly arbitrary. A lesser god in TPO might be more powerful than a greater god.

I don't necessarily see why.

http://www.immortalshandbook.com/freestuff1.htm

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy Anabster mate!

"Neutronium Golem" is a household word over at my living group these days, but not in a terribly flattering way... I can only imagine it will get worse!

Did that crazy gang of MIT misfits you hang out with ever solve the gravitational effects of the Orichalcum* constructs?

*Not Neutronium.