Pathfinder 1E Ultimate Campaign - Creating a Kingdom

[wlmartin]

Hi guys,

I would appreciate any thoughts you guys might have on the Ultimate Campaign (SRD [url]http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building[/URL] here) in regards to Kingdom Building.

My plan is to create my NPC owned kingdoms using this model and use it to flesh out what the towns/cities look like and how their politics and interactions effect the players. They will be something i start from scratch prior to the groups involvement in the world and then when they become alive in it, the interaction effects their play etc.

The initial town they come into will be one created by a group of high level adventurers to settle into (as NPCs) 50 years ago. I will run the turn progression for the per-turn activity but for ease of use probably run them in 6-month / 12-month blocks (basically scaling all of construction turns etc) to save me running 600 turns.

My big question is, has anybody used this as a framework to run NPC controlled towns/cities for the purposes of how you plan out your districts etc?
I know a lot of this is behind the scenes stuff the players don't see but i am a very deep deep game guy and having a town in place with 50 years of history, developed from a small settlement into a bustling town... where the inn, shops, mines etc are actually there for a reason in a function rather than just placing them in notes on a map... and basically running a little mini civilization type mini-game for my own fun as a background for the players?

My smaller question is - am i crazy for wanting to do this?
Its something the players will never see, the BP, the lots, the facts and figures they dont care about - they just like to see pretty maps, know where everything is and how to get there... so if i flesh it out to the detail i will be doing, its pretty much going to be for my benefit

And lastly, is the way the UC book simulates this realistic in anyones experience? (enough so that a town functions, the unrest/stability is tempered by government buildings to martial this and buildings have a purpose?)



So basically, should I bother doing this, putting hours into it (mainly for my own enjoyment) simply to simulate something the players will only ever see high level information for

 

[Hand of Evil]

I have not used this but I always start with a map, a timeline and a relationship chart.

The map provides me the geography and important places, it also lets me know who the guys are next door. When looking at the map, think about reasons why locations are where they are; ports, mines, quarries, farm lands, timber, etc. Note: look at real life location for examples.

The timeline is the history of your kingdom, when was it founded to the campaign date. Something you can do is build a random table of events, earthquake, flood, 100 year floor, royal births and deaths, invasions, gold found, silver found, major death, road built, canal built, grand building built or destroyed, ruler change, land grabs, wars won, wars lost, etc.

Now, the relationship chart; this is just not with the guys next door but with the power groups in the kingdom. How many noble families, how many guilds, how many churches, how many etc. All of the will have a leader with wants, what is their relationship to the king, to his staff, to each other. something I do is create a "power" level for each person and tie it to their CHR, the higher the score, the more power they have.

 

[Mercurius]

My smaller question is - am i crazy for wanting to do this?
Its something the players will never see, the BP, the lots, the facts and figures they dont care about - they just like to see pretty maps, know where everything is and how to get there... so if i flesh it out to the detail i will be doing, its pretty much going to be for my benefit

....

So basically, should I bother doing this, putting hours into it (mainly for my own enjoyment) simply to simulate something the players will only ever see high level information for

I can't answer your specific questions about Ultimate Campaign (although am very tempted to check it out now), even these really as you have to answer them for yourself. But I think that's just it: you know the answer already.

YES, you are crazy, and YES you should do this because you want to. So what if the players never see it? It will be enjoyable for you, and a lot of the fun of D&D from the DM's side of things--at least for me, and many others--is world-building. I'd even argue that it isas enjoyable as actually playing, just in a different way.

D&D is an interesting hobby in that a large number of folks--DMs mainly--spend an inordinate amount of time doing things secondary to the actual playing of the game itself. Reading, preparation, online forums, day-dreaming, etc. I see this as a primary feature and not a quirk or a flaw in the hobby - it is partially what the hobby is!

So if you need to hear it from one of your fellow lunatics in the asylum, I say go for it! And let us know how it works out.

 

[Mercurius]

I have not used this but I always start with a map, a timeline and a relationship chart.

The map provides me the geography and important places, it also lets me know who the guys are next door. When looking at the map, think about reasons why locations are where they are; ports, mines, quarries, farm lands, timber, etc. Note: look at real life location for examples.

The timeline is the history of your kingdom, when was it founded to the campaign date. Something you can do is build a random table of events, earthquake, flood, 100 year floor, royal births and deaths, invasions, gold found, silver found, major death, road built, canal built, grand building built or destroyed, ruler change, land grabs, wars won, wars lost, etc.

Now, the relationship chart; this is just not with the guys next door but with the power groups in the kingdom. How many noble families, how many guilds, how many churches, how many etc. All of the will have a leader with wants, what is their relationship to the king, to his staff, to each other. something I do is create a "power" level for each person and tie it to their CHR, the higher the score, the more power they have.

Awesome advice - I think you cover the three most important starting points.

I'd also add something like "lore" - little tidbits of random information, from rumors to legends to hidden spots on the map to what-have-you. This would be a grab-bag category that doesn't quite fit on the map, in the history, or relationship chart but fleshes out the setting.

 

[wlmartin]

I can't answer your specific questions about Ultimate Campaign (although am very tempted to check it out now), even these really as you have to answer them for yourself. But I think that's just it: you know the answer already.

YES, you are crazy, and YES you should do this because you want to. So what if the players never see it? It will be enjoyable for you, and a lot of the fun of D&D from the DM's side of things--at least for me, and many others--is world-building. I'd even argue that it isas enjoyable as actually playing, just in a different way.

D&D is an interesting hobby in that a large number of folks--DMs mainly--spend an inordinate amount of time doing things secondary to the actual playing of the game itself. Reading, preparation, online forums, day-dreaming, etc. I see this as a primary feature and not a quirk or a flaw in the hobby - it is partially what the hobby is!

So if you need to hear it from one of your fellow lunatics in the asylum, I say go for it! And let us know how it works out.

You make good words my dear sir!


I just love the way it works, it even gives you a district grid (sort of like a city block) that you plug your buildings into.
It always bothers me that i tell me PCs to walk into a district and its really just a sort of limbo with random rabitholes for stores. The last time I had a series of specific districts each with a selection of inns, shops, etc that made the players feel like they were actually visiting a place but really it was just letters on a page as the limbo feeling of floating from NPC to NPC was there with the flavor of a district or collection of similar buildings nearby. It didnt matter what position they were in.

With this system you actually flesh out WHERE the buildings are in relation to each other and although their are still some sizing factors etc, its still remarkably more accurate that sprawling some random shops along a rough street path for them to visit.

I can just see it now, i start off with a blank area and by the time the area is developed, i have a sprawling city with function and feel that has an actual map function because the city is built on a grid and the shops relate to each other, next-door, across the road, around the corner... all matter

 

[Hand of Evil]

Oh, nicknames, not just the people but Cities, Rivers, city and rural locations, great way to add color to a game but also gives a possible meaning to the location.

 

[Tovec]

Hi guys,

I would appreciate any thoughts you guys might have on the Ultimate Campaign (SRD http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-buildinghttp://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building here) in regards to Kingdom Building.

My plan is to create my NPC owned kingdoms using this model and use it to flesh out what the towns/cities look like and how their politics and interactions effect the players. They will be something i start from scratch prior to the groups involvement in the world and then when they become alive in it, the interaction effects their play etc.

The initial town they come into will be one created by a group of high level adventurers to settle into (as NPCs) 50 years ago. I will run the turn progression for the per-turn activity but for ease of use probably run them in 6-month / 12-month blocks (basically scaling all of construction turns etc) to save me running 600 turns.

Actually I think this is essential. I think that the speed at which certain things are built is far too quick. Build an entire castle in a month? I heard there was originally supposed to be a graduated system that called for time to build something. So perhaps on turn 1 you start the castle and in turn .. 13 it completes. I believe it was based on both the size and the gold/BP/resources put into it. But once again, as far as I know the rules for this never fully appeared, so I would personally recommend using 3-6 month timeframes and if you feel so inclined then adding in extra lengths for larger buildings.

My big question is, has anybody used this as a framework to run NPC controlled towns/cities for the purposes of how you plan out your districts etc?
I know a lot of this is behind the scenes stuff the players don't see but i am a very deep deep game guy and having a town in place with 50 years of history, developed from a small settlement into a bustling town... where the inn, shops, mines etc are actually there for a reason in a function rather than just placing them in notes on a map... and basically running a little mini civilization type mini-game for my own fun as a background for the players?

Yes, I have done that. I don't recommend it honestly. This is one of those things that I think works semi-well (super-well if the party is into it, super-poorly if they're not) with most parties and kind of falls apart with a DM. It is a lot of minutia that I think is about 10-20x more work than it is worth. Now there is nothing to say that you can't do it if you get something out of it. Or even that you can't use it as a rough guideline for building something but using NPCs to run a city doesn't feel the way it is supposed to. I don't know how to specifically explain it. It could just be my experience but it lacks a certain something when one person is doing everything. If the players aren't interacting with it then I think it is not very valuable and turns into a large sink of time and energy to get results you could achieve by a little bit of fiat to get them where they work best.

My smaller question is - am i crazy for wanting to do this?
Its something the players will never see, the BP, the lots, the facts and figures they dont care about - they just like to see pretty maps, know where everything is and how to get there... so if i flesh it out to the detail i will be doing, its pretty much going to be for my benefit

You're not crazy. If it is something you find enjoyable go for it. I personally don't think it is worth it and I'd never do it again (for an NPC). But if it's something you like then my experience is irrelevant. Just keep in mind that if you are running 50 years of a city that is A LOT of work, having to calculate build points, loyalty, stability, economics, NPC's scores, roles, unrest. All while new buildings are added in. Add onto this that the kingdom building rules are built for expansion, not for a little town to stay a little town (unless something screws up). Even for starting groups you almost always need a spreadsheet (and a darn good one at that, I'm on my third version) to try and keep track of everything. So, doing that of 600 turns, or even for 60 is going to be a pain in the butt. Some people like that, some people like creating new languages from scratch too, but as a casual DM I have better things that fascinate me and that my players may actually SEE.

And lastly, is the way the UC book simulates this realistic in anyones experience? (enough so that a town functions, the unrest/stability is tempered by government buildings to martial this and buildings have a purpose?)

I think it does a so-so job of simulation. I think it does an amazing job at what it is originally built for, for expansion in the Kingmaker books, to create a small barony through kingdom and to go to war (not so sure on the armies part), but on a smaller scale I'm not so sure. I've used it to create towns that are fairly new when I'm trying to track how much wealth they'd have. And I've used it (to a point then I gave up because the spreadsheet (#2) wasn't able to keep up and I just figured that whatever I put in worked better than what the figures of the kingdom building rules said. I don't need 18 monuments to keep my unrest so low. Heck, I can even (as a DM running the game) survive with a decent amount of civil unrest without the entire kingdom/empire completely imploding - something the rules don't really allow for over an extended period of time. So, it does what it is trying to do fairly well, less good at doing "maintenance" or slower cities/kingdoms.

So basically, should I bother doing this, putting hours into it (mainly for my own enjoyment) simply to simulate something the players will only ever see high level information for

Yeah, that is something you'll have to answer for yourself. Personally, I don't put too much effort into things the players will never see. Things that may come up, or little bits for background that may affect things down the line? Sure. But little things that can be achieved more simply other ways, I chose those other ways 9 times out of 10.

You make good words my dear sir!


I just love the way it works, it even gives you a district grid (sort of like a city block) that you plug your buildings into.
It always bothers me that i tell me PCs to walk into a district and its really just a sort of limbo with random rabitholes for stores. The last time I had a series of specific districts each with a selection of inns, shops, etc that made the players feel like they were actually visiting a place but really it was just letters on a page as the limbo feeling of floating from NPC to NPC was there with the flavor of a district or collection of similar buildings nearby. It didnt matter what position they were in.

With this system you actually flesh out WHERE the buildings are in relation to each other and although their are still some sizing factors etc, its still remarkably more accurate that sprawling some random shops along a rough street path for them to visit.

I can just see it now, i start off with a blank area and by the time the area is developed, i have a sprawling city with function and feel that has an actual map function because the city is built on a grid and the shops relate to each other, next-door, across the road, around the corner... all matter

If you are just wanting to use the rules for building a city and placing the buildings - which seems to be your goal - then I don't know. The rules on that part a kind of murky, they give rules about which things are good to have, how many are good, what their uses are and even which can be near what. But none of that really details city grids/sectors.

You can also accomplish this without going through all the effort of running the full rules. A rules-light might work better, use average rolls, figure out a larger timeframe (as discussed) between turns, assign buildings you can afford, lay out your grids and plot down your buildings. I think it would do a decent job at this; starting small with similar buildings near each other. Or with smaller ones near a large central one.

I'm not sure honestly. If you are just going for the city arrangement part I'm really not sure how that works out. Please let me know. If you'd do evolving stages of the city creation that'd be even better. I'm really curious how you make this work.

 

[mr_outsidevoice]

I have used the system not to create a small kingdom but to figure out the Math of it after I built it.

I knew I wanted a small City, medium Town and a small town. I knew what drove the economy (Trade hub, Iron mining, some agriculture), I knew the leadership and some of the factions.

As a rule, there are as many factions as PCs and maybe up to 2 more.

As long as you use the rules to give you a rational background for your campaign and the details do not drag down and interfere with the story and player fun.

 

[KismetRose]

I've wanted to use at least some of the kingdom system because I know that, as a player, I would love it. But as a DM it runs the risk of side-tracking me away from development that's needed elsewhere and I know that my players aren't interested in the finer details or kingdom management angle, so I've put it on the back burner.

Perhaps the spreadsheet available on this thread will help you streamline the process?
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pvsy&page=last?Ultimate-Campaign-Kingdom-Tracking-Spreadsheet

You can make the details of placement matter more to the group if they get involved in particular businesses/locations and you build encounters that include the other buildings/groups in the vicinity.