D&D 5E Unbalanced Sub-classes and how to fix them

[Mistwell]

Only problem with that view is that feats and multi-classing make up a significant part of the mechanical richness and depth of the edition.

I disagree. The quantity of feats is intentionally small to make sure it's not the primary basis of richness and depth, and I don't even think the rules are written with a lot of multiclassing in mind to begin with. Sub-classes are intended as the primary source of richness and depth, with backgrounds another source, race and class other sources, etc.. I don't even think feats and multiclassing make the top 5.

 

[cake quarry]

I disagree. The quantity of feats is intentionally small to make sure it's not the primary basis of richness and depth, and I don't even think the rules are written with a lot of multiclassing in mind to begin with. Sub-classes are intended as the primary source of richness and depth, with backgrounds another source, race and class other sources, etc.. I don't even think feats and multiclassing make the top 5.

I have to disagree with that. I believe feats provide lots of richness and Depth as well as helping achieve character concepts. Also as a Min/Maxer I can tell you that almost all of the abilities in the player's handbook are written with Multiclassing in mind.

 

[CapnZapp]

Actually, while it would have been fine by me if EK allowed the **choice** of any two wizard schools (conceptually - might need balancing - maybe one school early then a second later, etc) I thought the evocation aspect was pretty obvious as to its focus - getting some large AOE effects for the cases where it is needed. I also found that the idea of using slots for evocation was less important than say opening up scrolls and such as options for when the EK cannot get into his normal damage producing strength.

For example, a 5th level EK can use a fireball scroll (possibly crafted by his party caster) with (Int+2 Prof+3) at the early part of a fight while the enemy is closing with a decent chance of success (esp if assistance such as guidance etc are provided.) Also opens up all the "ability to cast spell) requirements.

meanwhile, i agree, the slots spent in combat boil down to mostly abjurations that allow things needed or utilize other actions they are not using. with shield being the most obvious choice.

Personally i think the specific call out to evocation was a bad idea but it can be fine in a typical environment if played well. but i would have definitely preferred illusion, transmutation, conjuration or even necromancy as options.

One school at 3rd, another at 10th another at 14th - whatever the breaks are.

The EK gets Fireball at 13th level. That's thoroughly unimpressive.

You are much better off casting spells with static benefits rather than ones dependent on "caster level".

We can say it's a good idea to imagine EKs with evocation spells, but we can't escape the fact it's a school heavily dependant on "caster level", and so a bad fit for anything less than a full caster.

It may be possible to create a balanced martial evoker, but not using the standard spellcasting mechanism. Much better then to craft specific class features that mimic spells, where, say, we can allow the character to cast Burning Hands using very high spell slot levels but without opening the door to actual spellcasting.

Generally, it is probably better to drop the idea and instead go for a class that uses magic to enchant his blade: make it flame up for +1d6 damage and stuff like that. It's evocation-like, but not actual evocation.

PS. Let's leave scrolls out of this; that is hardly a core feature of the class. You would commonly never have so many scrolls of Fireball anyway that you'd give one of them to someone that stands a 50% chance of ruining it (at best; considering how an EK is unlikely to have a +3 Int modifier for his DC 13 spellcasting check. Nobody is proficient in spellcasting checks except level 10 abjurers).

 

[CapnZapp]

I disagree. The quantity of feats is intentionally small to make sure it's not the primary basis of richness and depth, and I don't even think the rules are written with a lot of multiclassing in mind to begin with. Sub-classes are intended as the primary source of richness and depth, with backgrounds another source, race and class other sources, etc.. I don't even think feats and multiclassing make the top 5.

You're conflating two things.

You can claim what the designers intended all you want, it does not change that I assert that feats and multiclassing are a big part of mechanical character complexity.

You are welcome to disagree with that, but not by talking about what the designers intended.

If you do want to discuss actual mechanical complexity rather than somebody's hopes and wants for it, I'm all ears. In that case, I begin by saying that since feats and multiclassing are the only two subsystems that add to existing characters, they automatically rise to the top as most likely suspects.

When multiclassing then is the only way to multiply the existing content (rather than merely adding to it), it to me is clear it is by far the most enrichening subsystem of all.

I know some posters want WotC to get away with creating a much simplified game without having to answer for the much-reduced mechanical texture (or crunch), but I'm having none of it.

Without multiclassing and feats 5th edition is unbearably non-complex and I don't care whether the system is balanced without them. I need it to be balanced with them, since it's the only way I want to play the game.

But that's personal opinion. Back to actual fact.

The first step is to establish that without feats and multiclassing, this edition is a huge step backwards in crunch. Sure we have subclasses, but mechanically, there is only one big choice point (at level 2 or thereabouts). The next is to establish that since release, that level of crunch has barely increased at all.

Now, you may like it or you may not like it. But please don't muddle the issue. This isn't about what you like, or what the designers want us to like.

Best regards,

 

[5ekyu]

The EK gets Fireball at 13th level. That's thoroughly unimpressive.

You are much better off casting spells with static benefits rather than ones dependent on "caster level".

We can say it's a good idea to imagine EKs with evocation spells, but we can't escape the fact it's a school heavily dependant on "caster level", and so a bad fit for anything less than a full caster.

It may be possible to create a balanced martial evoker, but not using the standard spellcasting mechanism. Much better then to craft specific class features that mimic spells, where, say, we can allow the character to cast Burning Hands using very high spell slot levels but without opening the door to actual spellcasting.

Generally, it is probably better to drop the idea and instead go for a class that uses magic to enchant his blade: make it flame up for +1d6 damage and stuff like that. It's evocation-like, but not actual evocation.

PS. Let's leave scrolls out of this; that is hardly a core feature of the class. You would commonly never have so many scrolls of Fireball anyway that you'd give one of them to someone that stands a 50% chance of ruining it (at best; considering how an EK is unlikely to have a +3 Int modifier for his DC 13 spellcasting check. Nobody is proficient in spellcasting checks except level 10 abjurers).

As for fireball at 13th, well yes, thats why i said evocation spells using slots not so good an idea. As for scrolls use in certain circumstances, sorry but that seems to me to be a notable advantage. there are lots of different ways to get advantage on ability checks and to get other modifiers in play depending on the party setup, so, I do not consider allowing the class working with a party access to those options as something to just not be considered.

That said, i still believe the tie between Ek and evocation was a flawed design - as i said.

 

[CapnZapp]

Sure, just that in the end, you're optimizing for what remains a 4d8 fireball (if we assume a basic miss chance of 50%).

It just looks to me that the best way to optimize the scroll... is to hand it to the Wizard, and have the EK do some sword swings instead.

Yes, you can lower that miss chance... but it just doesn't look to me a great way to spend Bardic Inspirations or Blesses or somesuch. And don't ask the EK to have a better Intelligence just to make spellcasting checks.

The basic idea of being a "scroll-caster" is intriguing, but my end analysis is "sure, but another subclass than the EK". Sounds much more like what the Arcane Trickster could have been, if only WotC hadn't priced the Use Magic Device ability so steeply.

If you got UMD already when you selected your subclass, and you could gain spellcasting check proficiency somehow... now we're talking, since it is now much more reasonable to ask for a +2 Int modifier and a +5 on your DC 13 rolls. Then add a possibility to select UMD as one of your Expertises, and we're quickly looking at +11!

The EK, meanwhile, is much better off dumping Int and simply avoiding any spells that rely on a good spellcasting ability score (such as spells that trigger saving throws).

So yes, we agree the evocation angle is spurious at best. In fact, I consider it a trap, in that it suggests to newbies that evocation spells are what Eldritch Knights do well, when any real analysis tells us that is the opposite of how you really should approach the class, namely "just cast spells that doesn't eat up your Attack actions, don't rely on Concentration, and otherwise act like an entirely non-magical fighter" to oversimplify a bit.

 

[Zardnaar]

Some of the subclasses are only bad with the default array. If you roll higher scores the Valor Bard for example is a loot better as it is more MAD than most classes (multiple scores 14/16+ required). All classes benefit form high scores of course some more than others.

Valor Bard with shield master, expertise athletics and the ability to case enhance ability or enlarge and you can knock giants prone.

Clerics with melee abilities (ie death clerics) that can only wear medium armor are in a similar boat.

 

[5ekyu]

Sure, just that in the end, you're optimizing for what remains a 4d8 fireball (if we assume a basic miss chance of 50%).

It just looks to me that the best way to optimize the scroll... is to hand it to the Wizard, and have the EK do some sword swings instead.

Yes, you can lower that miss chance... but it just doesn't look to me a great way to spend Bardic Inspirations or Blesses or somesuch. And don't ask the EK to have a better Intelligence just to make spellcasting checks.

The basic idea of being a "scroll-caster" is intriguing, but my end analysis is "sure, but another subclass than the EK". Sounds much more like what the Arcane Trickster could have been, if only WotC hadn't priced the Use Magic Device ability so steeply.

If you got UMD already when you selected your subclass, and you could gain spellcasting check proficiency somehow... now we're talking, since it is now much more reasonable to ask for a +2 Int modifier and a +5 on your DC 13 rolls. Then add a possibility to select UMD as one of your Expertises, and we're quickly looking at +11!

The EK, meanwhile, is much better off dumping Int and simply avoiding any spells that rely on a good spellcasting ability score (such as spells that trigger saving throws).

So yes, we agree the evocation angle is spurious at best. In fact, I consider it a trap, in that it suggests to newbies that evocation spells are what Eldritch Knights do well, when any real analysis tells us that is the opposite of how you really should approach the class, namely "just cast spells that doesn't eat up your Attack actions, don't rely on Concentration, and otherwise act like an entirely non-magical fighter" to oversimplify a bit.

"It just looks to me that the best way to optimize the scroll... is to hand it to the Wizard, and have the EK do some sword swings instead."

Sigh... At 120 feet looking down from surprise thats some good swings.

Like i said several times, i am not recommending scroll and evocation as goid use for the main part of the combat... Just as a circumstantial edge that should not be dismissed. A trio of fireballs from wizard, EK, Rogue at range might well go a good way to almost end a fight before it starts. At least clean out lots of riffraff.



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[CapnZapp]

Just as a circumstantial edge that should not be dismissed. A trio of fireballs from wizard, EK, Rogue at range might well go a good way to almost end a fight before it starts. At least clean out lots of riffraff.

Again, sure. If you have lots of fireball scrolls to spend.

After all, that trio of fireballs is likely only a duo. And in 1 out of 4 fights, it's just the lone fireball (when both EK and AT misses their spellcasting checks) unless you have spent even more resources.

Shrug. I guess it's possibly, but I recommend each character playing to his or her strengths instead. You accomplish the same thing in a more economic way by having the wizard take two levels of fighter, and having the party doing a fighting retreat, where the fighter and rogue can focus on what they actually do well, and the wizard does what he does well. Since the group has plenty of fireballs, how about casting a fireball, then retreating 30 yards. Next round cast another fireball, then retreating a further 30 yards. The fighter covers the retreat and slays any fast runner trying to get to the wizard. The rogue starts sneak-attacking the main BBEG which presumably also is in the fight.

My main point is that we seem to be in agreement: yes, the EK is given evocation as a school. No, that's never a good idea to actually utilize.

Of course, with endless scrolls, and huge hordes of weak underlings, standard economics as well as tactics does not apply. So fireball away, I guess.

Still. Can't shake that nagging feeling that player should just have rolled up a Sorcerer if all she wants to do is cast fireballs and not use her swords...

 

[Valetudo]

Even at 13th lvl, 3 fireballs in a surprise round is a great way to make a fight easy mode. EKs are fine, they actually get enough free spells that can be used in a variety of ways. There are alot of low lvl spells that are useful even at high lvl and the core of the fighter is where they get most of their offense anyways. Add in cantrips that can be used for utility instead of combat and you have the best fighter subclass at higher lvls.