Uncanny Dodge and Run

[BWP]

I searched the PHB (3.5) and the FAQ but couldn't see a clear answer: Uncanny Dodge lets you keep your DEX bonus if you would otherwise be flat-footed ... in some cases. Does the rule actually mean all cases (other than the listed exception of being physically restrained)? I.E., when you run, you lose your DEX bonus to AC ... but you're not described as being "flat-footed". Can a character with Uncanny Dodge use a Run action and still keep their DEX bonus to AC?

If Uncanny Dodge doesn't let you keep your DEX bonus to AC in all cases ... what distinguishes a case where it applies from one where it doesn't?

Sorry for any vagueness, but I don't have a copy of my rulebooks handy to quote any exact wording.

 

[FEADIN]

Not in some cases:
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian retains his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if he is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker. However, he still loses his Dexterity bonus to AC if immobilized. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead

It seems clear, for running with your dexterity bonus try this:
RUN [GENERAL]
Benefit: When running, you move five times your normal speed (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or four times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load). If you make a jump after a running start (see the Jump skill description), you gain a +4 bonus on your Jump check. While running, you retain your Dexterity bonus to AC.Normal: You move four times your speed while running (if wearing medium, light, or no armor and carrying no more than a medium load) or three times your speed (if wearing heavy armor or carrying a heavy load), and you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.

 

[Li Shenron]

If Uncanny Dodge doesn't let you keep your DEX bonus to AC in all cases ... what distinguishes a case where it applies from one where it doesn't?

Only in those 2 cases specified. Flat-footed & attacked by invisible attackers imply being denied your Dex bonus, but there are many other situations which imply the same.

 

[BWP]

Only in those 2 cases specified.

Sorry, but that doesn't match with the text's use of the word "even". If it had meant only those two cases, it would have simply stated those two cases. The use of "even" indicates that those two cases are only extreme examples of when the bonus applies when it ordinarily wouldn't.

Unfortunately, it's equally true that if the rule meant all cases (with the specified exception for being immobilised), it could have said that just as easily.

IOW, the rule is written wishy-washily for no readily apparent reason. What does it actually mean?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Sorry, but that doesn't match with the text's use of the word "even".

It's one of the most frequently argued clauses in the PHB. It usually comes up in the context of Feint, rather than Run, though.

For what they're worth, comments from designers have always (that I can recall) favoured the 'exclusive list' reading - that Feint still denies Dex bonus to someone with Uncanny Dodge, because Feint is neither 'flat-footed' nor 'invisible attacker'.

Ultimately, you'll just have to ask your DM.

I'm in the 'exclusive list' camp myself, so if I were your DM, Uncanny Dodge would have no effect on your Dex bonus while Running - you'd still lose it.

-Hyp.

 

[melkorspawn]

I've always wondering about Uncanny Dodge and climbing a rope. I've seen it ruled both ways... I tend to rule against keeping the dex bonus, but if someone made a convincing arguement the first time it cropped up in a specific campaign, I might be more lax.

 

[FEADIN]

I keep uncanny dodge for the two conditions listed, for climbing, running et all...:No.
Specific powers or feats give you these the possibility to keep your Dext bonus while clmbing or running you have to get them.

 

[Li Shenron]

Sorry, but that doesn't match with the text's use of the word "even". If it had meant only those two cases, it would have simply stated those two cases. The use of "even" indicates that those two cases are only extreme examples of when the bonus applies when it ordinarily wouldn't.

"Even" means that if you have other circumstances when you'd keep the Dex bonus (whatever the reason), those are still valid as well as the 2 new ones.

Had they not write "even", one might as well have argued that the feat lets you keep Dex in those 2 cases, but makes you loses it in other cases even if you normally don't lose it.

Had the authors meants the feat to always keep Dex to AC, they'd have written "always retains her Dex..." or "never lose her Dex" or otherwise they would have listed the 2 conditions after the word "example".

 

[BWP]

It's one of the most frequently argued clauses in the PHB.

So we're agreed that it's just poorly written for no good reason, right?

Ultimately, you'll just have to ask your DM.

That's me. :\

"Even" means that if you have other circumstances when you'd keep the Dex bonus (whatever the reason), those are still valid as well as the 2 new ones. Had they not write "even", one might as well have argued that the feat lets you keep Dex in those 2 cases, but makes you loses it in other cases even if you normally don't lose it.

Er, no ... not by the rules of English grammar as I understand them (and I like to think that I understand them pretty well). If the intent is that the ability allows you to keep your DEX bonus for AC only in those two specific cases, then the use of the word "even" is misleading and inappropriate. Change the "even" to "when" and the rule is grammatically just fine. Other abilities that may or may not let you keep your AC bonus can look to their own wording; they won't impact on this rule unless they specifically cite it.

Thanks to all for your thoughts.