Uncanny Dodge vs Feint conundrum...

[slingbld]

I posted this on the WotC boards a few days ago. However, I also wanted to get the opinions of this group of wise scholars as well. Or at least from some fellow goofballs.

Bottom Line: Does Uncany Dodge prevent you from loosing your dex bonus to feint?

All the replies on WotC's boards said "No, you keep it" Which is what I am hoping for. I'm just wanting to know if y'all feel the same way & what is your argument for or against this train of logic?

Thanks folks!

Slingbld~

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

RAW, it does appears that you keep it.

She retains her Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) even if she is caught flat-footed or struck by an invisible attacker.

This is based on the fact the "even if" clause is generally read as being illustrative but not exhaustive. Thus, "You always keep your Dex bonus to AC (and here are the most common ways in which that occurs)."

I don't like that rule, however, and it is therefore changed whenever I DM. A feinted rogue is just as bad off as a feinted fighter, wizard, cleric, or etc.

 

[slingbld]

RAW, it does appears that you keep it.



This is based on the fact the "even if" clause is generally read as being illustrative but not exhaustive. Thus, "You always keep your Dex bonus to AC (and here are the most common ways in which that occurs)."

I don't like that rule, however, and it is therefore changed whenever I DM. A feinted rogue is just as bad off as a feinted fighter, wizard, cleric, or etc.

I never really looked at it that way....
I really hate how the books seem a bit too vague a bit too much of the time.
And of course, there is no Uncanny Dodge Q in the "Official" FAQ from WatC...

I agree with you on how it should be interpreted.

Slingbld~

 

[ThirdWizard]

I read "even" as emphasis instead of non-exhaustive.

This is one of those murky areas, though. Chalk it up to ambiguity and play it how you will without worrying if you're right or wrong, I say. But, that's not as much fun as debating what "even" means for five pages.

 

[argo]

You can mark me down as one of those who reads the "even if" clause as exhaustive. IMC Uncanny Dodge does not protect against feints. And I still think its a powerful ability even then.

Later.

 

[Felix]

I agree with argo; I think Uncanny Dodge should protect you when you are unaware, not when you are misled.

YMMV.

 

[The Souljourner]

The problem is that if uncanny dodge works against feint, it has to work while you're rock climbing, too (and during any other activity where you're physically restricted from using your dex bonus but not immobile). I believe the intention of the ability was to only affect flat footedness and invisible attackers, not every effect that removes your dex bonus.

Dissect the sentence all you want, in the end, it's vague, and you have to try to figure out the spirit of the rule and go by that.

-The Souljourner

 

[the Jester]

Uncanny dodge spells out exactly what it prevents.

It prevents you from losing your dex bonus to AC when struck by an invisible or unseen attacker, or when flat-footed.

There are those that argue that the fact that the phrase 'even when' in the description means that you always keep your dex bonus to AC, no matter what. In my opinion, this is a pretty loose interpetation- I suspect many of the people arguing that position play rogues. (Tongue in cheek, guys, tongue in cheek- no personal attack intended on anyone! ) I tend to be more of a 'strict constructionist' when it comes to things like that.

Also, if the 'even when' is illustrative and not exhaustive (as Patryn puts forward), why doesn't it use examples of situations where it's even harder to imagine someone keeping their dex bonus? (Climbing, for example.)

A final thought- if you choose to read UD to preserve your dex bonus all the time, do you keep it when you're sleeping? How about when you're held? How about when you're unconscious and dying? I don't think UD should help in any circumstances not spelled out in its description (and I really don't think most people read it that way either).

 

[Crothian]

I say Fient trumps UD, but I haven't seen anyone use Feint since october of 2000 so it really hasn't mattered

 

[Sejs]

Feint trumps UD, I'd say.