Under vs. Over estimating Party Power...

[Cloudgatherer]

I've been DMing my current game for several months, but recently I've been underestimating my party's abilities too much for my liking. I'm looking for a little advice as to what I should challenge them with. The party is about to head toward the elven kingdom in my world, where they can only go to one city, the others are barred from non-elves.

Current party (assume standard wealth for a party 2 levels lower):
Ftr11
Clr10
Rog10
Brd10 (w/ 9th level "monk/fighter" cohort, custom class)

I've thrown some encounters around EL 13/14 at them, and the party has dealt with it pretty well, too well IMO. Don't get me wrong, I don't expect to kill a party member, but simply dish out a little more damage, make the party feel a little more danger.

I'm hesitant to throw an EL 15/16 at the group. If I underestimate the party's abilities, the party wins and goes along their merry way. If I overestimate, I run the risk of a TPK or have to create a story reason why there were not outright killed.

Any suggestions? Matching up enemies for the party can be tricky business and a little advice would be nice.

Thanks!

 

[fba827]

I think I read somewhere that appropriate encounters for the PCs should drain them of 20% of their resources. That being the case, if you use the same ECL that you have been using, just don't give them time to recoup inbetween! (or, perhaps just not as much time).

Also noticed that you have it appears that your PC force is highly melee centered (fighter, barbarian, cleric and rogue) - perhaps change the primary tactics of the NPCs -- more distance battles (manticorces throwing spikes at them for several rounds before the PCs can get to the creature to run it through) or enemy archers scattered across a terrain firing down upon the PCs while they are in melee with other melee combatants (that would be annoying ... or, finally, just have their enemies have magic that reduces the PC's effectivness (unless the cleric is prepared, he/she isn't going to have the ability to counter/dispel everything ...)

My mind is mush tonight (but what's new? ) so I doubt I'm making any sense

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Play to their weaknesses

Not knowing the feat choices and skill distributions of the group, I can only guess, but it looks like they're strong in melee but short on arcane firepower.

Now, the thing about melee is that no matter how strong you are as human and demihuman fighters, there's always someone who can dish it out better than you. That's what you normally have a wizard or sorceror for--to reduce that thing's effectiveness.

So, to challenge them in melee, you might try:
An advanced Remhorraz (watch them run after they take 10d10 fire damage (and their weapons take 10d10/2 fire damage) for touching it). The Remhorraz's weakness would be movement and an inability to answer ranged attacks though. If your party is full of archers and/or boots of striding and springing, this wouldn't work.

An advanced Achierai (up the constitution for more hit points and give it more hit dice). The will save vs. insanity will seriously hamper the party's ability to melee such a creature and it deals out a lot of damage.

A coven of advanced Annis hags. Again, excellent melee damage, spell like abilities, spell resistance. Plus they're smart, so they can be expected to use their abilities very well.

A flying, improved invisible, shielded, mage armored, and hasted 12th level sorceror with non-detection active and plenty of fireballs, magic missiles, and acid arrows. Add in a monster Summoning VI (Celestial Dire bear) to start the combat and things will turn really nasty.

A pair of fourth level troll fighters (EL 12). Build both on 28 to 32 point buy (or just boost their strength, dex, int, wis, and con by 2 to four each). Give one of them: Cleave, Large and In Charge, Power Attack, combat reflexes and a huge masterwork glaive (20 foot reach). Give the other one point blank shot, precise shot, rapid shot, and weapon specialization: composite longbow and a huge +1 flaming mighty [+8] composite longbow. Give both of them potions of haste and troll sized full-plate armor and set them loose on the party (to avoid the inevitable flamestrikes, the troll archer should rapid shot then use his haste partial action to ready an attack to disrupt spellcasting).

If the last encounter seems too easy, adding another two troll fighters would only be EL 14.

On the other hand, it's easy to construct a low EL encounter that would TPK any specific party. So, consider your party's strengths, weaknesses and tactical ability against any of the above suggestions.

 

[River]

I've found that a few spellcasters go a long way.

Think outide the box. Usually you think about a highlevel wizard and his chaffish thugs? Try hitting them with your typical encounter + 3 5th level clerics.

3 5th level clerics with their prayer, silence, hold person, and mildly effective dispell magic and summon spells will make life just a bit more difficult.

River

 

[mmadsen]

I've thrown some encounters around EL 13/14 at them, and the party has dealt with it pretty well, too well IMO.

But what kind of encounters were they, and did they play into the party's strengths? I wouldn't up the EL; I'd use very different encounters.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Re: Re: Under vs. Over estimating Party Power...

But what kind of encounters were they, and did they play into the party's strengths? I wouldn't up the EL; I'd use very different encounters.

I would second this - since an EL14 for a 10th level party would normally be a "hangs in the balance, pretty likely to kill someone" type of encounter.

The amount of time they have to rest and repair is crucial. If you are running a wilderness adventure where they have one encounter per day, they will be a full strength each time. If you are running a dungeon encounter (say) where they have 8-9 encounters during the day then they will be that much weaker by the end of it.

FWIW I normally have a problem of overestimating a parties capabilities. In 3e it is much easier to kill players accidentally at almost any level (!) than it was in previous versions.

Cheers

 

[Bozo]

THINK DRUIDS

A forest huh....I used a Sor/Druid once in my campaign...level 9/3 use haste/entangle/summon beasty spells to wear the party down. Use faerie fire to take care of the sneaky types and use the druid to pass without trace..

Every night-
Have the druid sneak up to the camp and dump a bunch of summon spells (out of sight and sound of the party spell casters)...by night 3 the party will be exhausted enough to beat down with the druids really nast bear friend

Oh yeah..quicklings are great for gettting rid of magic items that have become a pain!

 

[Henry]

I second the suggestions here, but I must ask a few questions:

1) Do the players play the characters power to the fullest? is the cleric buffing up the party beforehand, or is he swinging melee with the best of 'em?

2) Remember that the cleric DOES have ranged firepower - searing light and flame strike if nothing else.

3) Use enemies that focus on will save magics. Your fighter, rogue, bard and cohort will be "soiling their panties" unless they have magic items that seriously boost their will saves. Fort and reflex saves are your group's strong suit. don't play to that unless the enemy is MEANT to be easily defeated.

4) If you want to really interest your players, create a layer full of about 100 kobolds, 1 mid to high-level sorcerer chieftain, and 1 mid-level fighter/rogue subchieftain. Purchase a copy of Song and silence. Litter the lair with magic and mechanical traps, set for people of medium height, and make all corridors apprximately 3' high by 2' wide. NEVER face them in a straight-up fight - hit and run. Your players will go nuts trying to make their way through the place, and will be truly baffled by the fact that mere kobolds are ticking them off and threatening them this much.

Good luck, and any further info you can volunteer about the party's strengths and what challenges you have faced them with will help us help you better.

 

[Crispy Critter]

Cloudgatherer,
I have the same problem as you in my campaign. Quick rundown:
Paladin 8
Cleric 7/Templar1
Cleric 8
Barbarian 8
Mage 7

It's become increasingly hard to challenge them. They are very balanced with lots of healing. The last couple sessions have taken place in a tomb (dungeon delving is difficult for this group, no rogue, etc.) where I thought I could really put some fear in them. The last encounter of the session was an EL 11. They walked through it with very little problem. I'm little afraid to go any higher than 3 ELs above the party level, but I think I'm going to have to start.

 

[Petrosian]

A lot of your party's strength will vary with items and gear. 10th level PCs should have around 49k of stuff each... do yours?

As for El... in addition to the "does it always play to their strength" and such above, you must consider the overall pattern.

How many of these encounters are of the "one fight a day" type as opposed to many fights in a day leading to a finale?

How many of these fights involve surprise or prep time for the party?

In my games i tend to see encounters running about 10% the enemy has real surprise, about 20% the enemy has a slight prep advantage, 40% both sides are even, and 20% the party has a slight prep advantage and 10% the party has total surprise.

I can tell you that given the availability of spells like the bulls strength etc, haste, energy protectionsm etc... the difference between a party starting even and a party with 18 seconds (3 rounds) to prepare is tremendous.

Similarly, my party is guilty of overkill... since they can haste the wiz and the sor and because they can dimension door 1/day using a ring, they tend to do so. Last series of encounters they were going in to rescue this village. Way before the village they encountered two displacers blocking their way. So the sor used his once a day ring, two improved invis, his once a day fly, a haste several magic missiles and... well he and the one PC managed to kill one displacer beast outright in 1 round and the other ran for the hills lit up by a faerie fire.

As an 8th level sorcerers tho, he was not down a significant number of spells and several key items had been used and they were hardly out the door on their mission which was time sensitive.

When they finally started hitting the village, the first few encounters, which were tougher than a pair of hungry displacers, were done using "no spells" because they were low already and needed them for later.

Just vary the encounters perhaps more than you have been. Gradually up the PARTY level +X level of your encounters and finales until you find a good break point.

In terms of worry about one level making a huge difference... "i cannot throw 15th level wiz cuz with 8th level spells" type of worry... use multiclassed villains... a Wiz13/Cleric-3 will be significantly tougher than a wiz 13 but wont have the AWESOME CRUSHIN POWER of 8th level spells that a wiz-16 would. A cleric-10/fighter-4 wont have HARM but will be real tough. MC allows you to up the versatility and endurance a little without necessarily upping the gross power.