Understanding Charge

[Switchback]

RAW (with updates included), you know exactly where the creature is unless they made a successful stealth check.

No, I was describing a non combat situation. You certainly wouldn't know where the creature was exactly once it left your line of sight around a corner or into a room of total darkness (and had new turns totally out of LoS). If could have went entirely into another part of the dungeon, exited the room, etc.

It's no different than trailing someone, 50 feet back, through a crowded street who then ducks into a tavern. You obviously no longer know the exact square that creature is in if you are still on the street, unless you have x-ray vision like superman.

All you know is your characters had a foe in sight at one point, but lost him. Just because you saw a creature at one point, certainly does not mean that you know where it is forever in the game world until it makes a stealth check.

Now if a combat had already started, then sure you go through the normal stealth check routine if they try to hide somewhere in the battle scene. I noted that you would only have to pick a square if you had failed all your appropriate checks (including passive perception), if the creature was actually still in the dark room when you got to it.

 

[GorTeX]

There was no mention at all of time passing in the situation I was replying to:

imilarly if you were following a creature and he went into a pitch black room, you wouldn't be able to charge them directly.

If you were following a creature and he went in to a pitch black room, unless the creature made a successful stealth check, you would know exactly which square they were in..with or without LOS.

Give the creature a few turns, he may well make the stealth check or leave the room (and depending on how close you were behind them, you may even know what path the creature took if it did not make or succeed on a stealth check).

Unless the creature makes the stealth roll, there is no need for a perception check by the PC's as they automatically know where he is...just because you do not have LOS does not automatically make the enemy hidden.

 

[Switchback]

Clearly there was a misunderstanding with my example. If the PC's were in combat, or *right behind* the creature and could get up to the doorway in 6 seconds or less, then your answer is fine.

But that is not what I was attempting to convey. Which was rather a non-combat situation in which the character are a ways back trying not to be seen. If it takes them 2 to 4 rounds to reach that room, there is no reason and no way the should know where or what that creature is doing in there in those intervening rounds.

If the characters decide to just stop and make camp for the night in the hall, they obviously don't keep knowing a creature's location who has gone out of LoS.

Once they get up to that doorway though then the creature can make its stealth check. Or maybe, if it didn't know it was being followed (say it just went to sleep), then it isn't even trying to hide. But that still wouldn't mean the PC's can see in the dark. They have to have a means to target something there (even if they can't see it), unless they are shooting indiscriminate area attacks. At that point, if they couldn't light the room, they would have to use the "targeting what you can't see" rules to pick a square, which would entail rolling a stealth check again for the creature vs their passive perception to determine its direction and so on with the normal process.

 

[Infiniti2000]

Doing so nerf's the already weak prone condition however - I wouldn't.

Not really. What the two-square caveat means is that knocking a monster prone and shifting 1 square is better than knocking it prone and shifting two squares. Why is staying closer the monster when he's prone better than getting further away? That makes no logical sense. Think of it this way, "Aw, man, he's too close now I can't reach him!" Wtf?

 

[eriktheguy]

Not really. What the two-square caveat means is that knocking a monster prone and shifting 1 square is better than knocking it prone and shifting two squares. Why is staying closer the monster when he's prone better than getting further away? That makes no logical sense. Think of it this way, "Aw, man, he's too close now I can't reach him!" Wtf?

I agree. Knocking someone prone may not prevent them from attacking you, but if it forces them to charge then they are restricted to a single melee basic attack. Using the 'charge one square, no +1' rule seems sensible.
If you think prone is too weak you could make standing up require a standard action, or provoke opportunity attacks, though I won't be doing either.

 

[Mistwell]

The biggest problem I have with charge is:

1) It is usually restricted to a basic melee attack for player characters,
2) Monster often have one of their best abilities as their basic melee attack.

This means monsters can freely charge player characters and have a significant effect on player characters, while player characters cannot freely charge monsters and expect to have a significant effect on monsters (unless they build specifically to charge).

I wouldn't mind if some monsters have good powers to be used with a charge...but it does bug me that it seems like all or almost all of them do.

 

[Bayuer]

What happens when monster charges and then comes an readied action, for instance the Swordmage Lighting Lure?

1) Can monster conitune charge to his target?
2) Can he attack the swordmage then as a charge?
3) What if i use charge, monster have power that grants him shifting? My charge is lost? Can i move along if I have movement left?

 

[tmatk]

What happens when monster charges and then comes an readied action, for instance the Swordmage Lighting Lure?

1) Can monster conitune charge to his target?
2) Can he attack the swordmage then as a charge?
3) What if i use charge, monster have power that grants him shifting? My charge is lost? Can i move along if I have movement left?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think a charge is considered one action. The move and the attack are resolved before another's readied action can kick in.

 

[cdrcjsn]

Once they get up to that doorway though then the creature can make its stealth check. Or maybe, if it didn't know it was being followed (say it just went to sleep), then it isn't even trying to hide. But that still wouldn't mean the PC's can see in the dark. They have to have a means to target something there (even if they can't see it), unless they are shooting indiscriminate area attacks. At that point, if they couldn't light the room, they would have to use the "targeting what you can't see" rules to pick a square, which would entail rolling a stealth check again for the creature vs their passive perception to determine its direction and so on with the normal process.

Not according to the errata on stealth/perception.

Just because you can't see a target, it doesn't mean that you don't know it's exact square...unless that creature makes a stealth check (which is against your passive perception). The only advantage a creature that is invisible or in full darkness has is that it doesn't need to find full cover or total concealment to make a stealth check.

Stealth is keeping quiet in addition to keeping out of sight, so it involves more than just vision. The lack of vision is already taken into account by the -5 to hit with ranged/melee attacks.

 

[cdrcjsn]

What happens when monster charges and then comes an readied action, for instance the Swordmage Lighting Lure?

1) Can monster conitune charge to his target?
2) Can he attack the swordmage then as a charge?
3) What if i use charge, monster have power that grants him shifting? My charge is lost? Can i move along if I have movement left?

Movement can be interrupted, but you should be able to finish the rest of your movement.

If the teleport or shift invalidates the "move in a direct line" portion of charge, then I suppose your charge fails.

But the wording for charge relies on common english rather than any keywords, so your best bet is to ask your DM to make a ruling and just stick with it.