Unearthed Arcana Unearthed Arcana: "Greyhawk" Initiative

The latest Unearthed Arcana by WotCs Mearls is up. "Mike Mearls introduces an alternative initiative system, inspired by AD&D and the journey to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin—the birthplace of D&D—for Gary Con 2017. While the initiative rules in fifth edition D&D are great for keeping the action moving and being easy to use at the table, the Greyhawk initiative variant takes a different approach. These rules add complexity, but with the goal of introducing more drama to combat."

The latest Unearthed Arcana by WotCs Mearls is up. "Mike Mearls introduces an alternative initiative system, inspired by AD&D and the journey to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin—the birthplace of D&D—for Gary Con 2017. While the initiative rules in fifth edition D&D are great for keeping the action moving and being easy to use at the table, the Greyhawk initiative variant takes a different approach. These rules add complexity, but with the goal of introducing more drama to combat."

He's calling it "Greyhawk Initiative". It'll be interesting to compare this to how we interpreted his earlier version of alternative initiative.

Mearls also talks about it in this video.


[video=youtube;hfSo4wVkwUw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfSo4wVkwUw[/video]


 

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Solkar77

First Post
Wouldn't it be easier if actions on the current turn set the dice for the initiative next turn??
On first combat round initiative as standard 5e. Then on second round, if you did melee and move then 1d8+1d6...
Rationale for that is if you do many things on current turn, you are 'late' on the next.
Simple, without stopping for deciding and with no possibility of getting stuck with no possible action...
 

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Lanefan

Victoria Rules
It's going to make combat slower too with players conferring each round, which is a big no no given how long combat already takes.
Easy to smack this down by simply declaring that a) every word coming out of their mouths (except for strictly game-mechanics things such as announcing dice roll results) is said in character, and b) only allowing them to say what can be said in just a few seconds.

Overall... I like it better than standard initiative, but it's got its own issues. Good on them for putting out a variant.
Yeah, pretty much my view too.

Lanefan
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I believe you just declare "move and melee" and roll 1d6 + 1d8 and then you work out the details when your turn comes up
My question is whether there's an enforced difference between declaring "move and melee" vs. "melee and move" - are you stuck with the order in which you declare? If not, then cool. :)
 

Aldarc

Legend
Again, I appreciate what Mearls is intending, but I find his implementation sorely lacking. I believe that there are better, easier solutions available for the same dilemma that he attempts to be addressing.

I don't particularly like how Mearls' initiative system essentially turns D&D into American football. Lines are set. Brief burst of action. Lines are reset. Brief burst of action. Repeat until dead. While this may increase some level of tactical play or time-keeping at tables, it also seems to kill immersion or the RP side of things, as the system fosters - in my experience running Mearls's initial proposal for several sessions - a greater move away from player-action-choice to committee-action-choice. Furthermore, I experienced a shift in how my players thought about and approached combat. They began moving away from doing "cool" character things towards doing "expedient" initiative things, which I see as one of the biggest drawbacks of this system. Mearls has voiced his discontent about bonus actions, so perhaps he plays with modified bonus actions at his table, but in a system that uses bonus actions and such, then this initiative system seems awkwardly clunky.

In short, this initiative system is not my cup of tea.
 

Staffan

Legend
Calculate the average turn order a ranged attack would have gone at under the old system, which included the full dex bonus. Now compare it to this new system, which does not include their dex bonus. I think you will find they're going roughly the same point in combat that they always were, relative to the str-melee combatant. I don't think they're really made more powerful - they're just about the same amount of powerful from this system I suspect.

So just as a guesstimate, a two-handed fighter would typically wear heavy armor and dump Dex, as it's only purpose would be for Initiative, and dex saves. Initiative isn't enough, on it's own, to incentivize that player to increase their dex over Con or the all important Wisdom save, and Dex saves tend to be the least impactful for that fighter (because they impact hit points, which they tend to have more of anyway). So, let's assume the Fighter has an 8 or 10 in Dex (-1 or 0), which I think is fair.

The Ranged Attacker, however, will max dex. Their AC depends on it, their attack bonus does, and their damage does. So they will likely have a 16 to 18 dex (+3 or +4), and eventually a 20 (+5).

Old system: Ranged attacker rolls a d20+3 or 4, so an average of 13.5 or 14.5. Melee attacker rolls a d20-1 or +0, so an average roll of 9.5 or 10.5. It's roughly a 4 point bonus the ranged attacker gets, and eventually a 5 point advantage once the ranged attacker gets a 20 in dex.

New system: Ranged attack rolls a d4, so average roll of 2.5. Melee attacker rolls a d8, so average of 4.5. So the Ranged attacker has a +2 bonus on the Melee attacker.

I am not sure of the percentages on that second one, but to me it seems roughly pretty darn similar. Seems like the Ranged attacker has roughly a 20-25% advantage on initiatives in both systems.
Your math is close, but your example is limited.

A 5-point advantage in initiative translates into about a 75% chance of going first, yes. Calculation: If the faster fighter rolls a 1 on initiative, the slower needs to roll a 7+ to go faster (breaking ties in favor of higher bonus). That's 14 out of 20. Extending that across the entire range, the slower fighter has a (1+2+...+14)/400 chance of going faster, or 105/400 = ~25%.

And just comparing the ranged d4 to the melee d8, the melee fighter (let's call her Brienne) has a 3/16 chance of going faster (ties break in favor of higher Dex, meaning the ranged guy - let's call him Lolegolas). That's about 17%. So the GH initiative gives Lolegolas a higher chance for winning initiative over Brienne than the core rules, but not overly so.

But that's not the whole story. Lolegolas will almost certainly be able to make his attacks, because (a) he likely goes first, and (b) even if people move around, he's likely to be able to attack someone. So he makes like a turret: standing still and shooting. But Brienne is not so lucky, as shown by Rath's frustration in the examples given. If Lolegolas drops her opponent, or if her opponent runs away, she can waste her turn, and nobody likes that. So she always wants to combine her melee with a move, and now she has to beat Lolegolas's d4 with her own d6+d8. The chance of her doing that is 3/(4*6*8), or 1/64. That's close enough to zero that you might as well just say "ranged go first, then people move, then they fight, and then they cast spells."

You're also assuming that every melee person is a heavily armored character who eschews Dexterity. That's not really true. There are plenty of melee warriors who do not fit that description: rogues, monks, Dex-based fighters, many valor bards, barbarians, dual-wielding rangers. Under the regular rules, a monk (let's call her Ember, for old times' sake) is likely to have as high a Dex as the archer, so their initiatives should be roughly 50/50. But under GH initiative, the monk is heavily penalized - the monk will likely both move, attack, and then attack again as a bonus action - that's an initiative of d6+d8+d8. In order to win initiative, Ember will either have to straight-up roll lower than Lolegolas (1/1536), or roll a tie (4/1536) which is resolved in her favor 50% of the time (so 2/1536, for a total of 3/1536 = 1/512). Going from 50% chance of winning initiative to ~0.2% sounds like a harsh penalty to me.
 


gyor

Legend
I'm disappointed it wasn't more subclasses updated, but perhaps they are happy with the rest of the subclasses that didn't get rejected out right.
 

ro

First Post
There've been a few questions about rolling difference dice for different weapons.

1) Can you roll for a dagger and then draw a greatsword?
2) Can you roll for a greatsword and then draw a dagger?

I would say no to the first, yes to the second. Whatever dice you roll, you should be allowed to take any option that would require a dice roll less than or equal to your roll. That is, you can always switch to quicker options.

This opens up flexibility. For example, if the melee attacker who didn't roll to move found he couldn't attack, he could substitute the move option because a move requires a d6 and his melee attack roll was a d6. If he was using a dagger and rolling a d4, however, he would be unable to substitute a d6 move, but could perhaps take a d4 dodge or similar.
 
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DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
I'm always happy with new ideas and concepts like this, because like all playtest material it compels us to look at what we already have and begin to wonder whether we care about it or not. Just like when in the D&D Next playtest when they put alignment restrictions on the Monk and Paladin in that one packet, it made all of us stop to think "Hey, is this something I really want, now that you're making me consider it?" It's the same thing with this new initiative subsystem-- now that Mike's put the thought into our heads, we're actually taking the time to consider whether we like how initiative currently runs or whether a different method might tickle our fancy more. Which is great, in my opinion! Sometimes it helps to have a light shone upon our particular biases or things we've become complacent with, to make us actually think a little harder about our game and why we like what we like.

So what I think will happen is that a lot of players are going to go "Not for me!" and leave this by the wayside, as is their right. But a bunch of others will understand and appreciate what Mike was trying to accomplish, and then bang the rules with a hammer over and over to bend it into a more pleasing shape for themselves. We've already seen it here in this thread with people thinking that X action should be faster or slower, or that attacks and movements should be split up or have their own initiative counts, or that on-the-fly actions should be allowed, etc. etc. Many people who enjoy kitbashing are going to really go to town on this idea and figure out ways to do this system faster, cleaner, but probably even more intricately. I look forward to see what people come up with.
 

I remember how horrible it was trying to look up tables for speed factors, spell levels and various initiative modifiers every round back in 2e. Rounds, happened, very, slowly... I disapprove of this system.

If they didn't want predictable turn orders, why don't you just take the initiative system that already exists 5e and just roll every round?
 

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