unfortunately not Finally settled, sunder and attacks of opp

[bestone]

I know there has been a dozen threads about this, and i just recently got into a discussion about it earlier today.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a

Sunder: You can attempt to sunder an object as a melee attack. You usually use the attack or full attack action for a sunder, but you also can sunder as an attack of opportunity.

Good to see something official, now arguing on the subject can be done with

 

[Sithobi1]

You don't...really think this article is going to solve everyone's problems, do you?

 

[Notmousse]

Sadly even if the PHB had an entire paragraph related to just how sunders are like any other kind of attack and can be used on AoOs and as part of a sunder-disarm-trip full attack there will be *someone* who claims it's a load of crap and that their way is the one true path.

Even so, I'm glad this is how it came down. Even if it's useless for PCs in many cases )who really wants to sunder that +5 flaming burst, shocking, dire flail of subjugation?

 

[Seeten]

This is from Skip Williams, the guy who just this very week said in an article on WoTC that "Dwarves make poor melee combatants because they are slow, and GET EVEN SLOWER when wearing armor"?

We are trusting his rules knowledge over the RAW?

 

[IcyCool]

Good to see something official, now arguing on the subject can be done with

Errata or a new rules printing with the text will finish that. An answer on par with what you'd get from CustServ isn't going to do much. This is certainly a good first step though. Now if they'd just keep the errata updated, there wouldn't be too many issues on the matter.

 

[bestone]

This is from Skip Williams, the guy who just this very week said in an article on WoTC that "Dwarves make poor melee combatants because they are slow, and GET EVEN SLOWER when wearing armor"?

We are trusting his rules knowledge over the RAW?

What are you talking about his knowlege over the raw?

Read the secion under sunder, and it states just that, that it can be used as a melee
attack. Raw agree's with this article.

It makes sense that you can sunder on an attack of opportunity

It states under sunder you can replace your melee attack with a sunder

You can make multiple sunder attacks in a round as long as you got enough bab..
but no aoo?

You can make a melee attack on an attack of opportunity

Its now been stated on something on wizards.com

Yet you still try to say it says you cant in the rules? The argument against it is just pulling straws, very thin straws at that.

Because of the table in the phb?

The rules under sunder clearly state what you can do with it, and no where in the sunder description does it say you may take a standard action to sunder......

Your straw pulling comes to the table, where it lists actions you "CAN" do in combat, and the fact that sunder (attack) is listed as a standard action.

It says sunder (attack) because its part of an attack action, why is it in the table like that? because if you were in combat, and were to do a sunder, it would indeed be a standard action....because its a melee attack.....????

Using this logic, you cant make a melee attack either, cause thats listed as a standard action! oh noes, how could that be, when you attack in a round....it counts as a....standard action..??? no!

why you say, isnt it listed with trip grapple and disarm? well those attacks all function very differently, with touch attacks and opposed rolls, they have very specific things in thier entry about how they work. While sunder doesnt, it only says you can use it as a melee attack.

So yes, i know im gonna get an earfull about your grasping at straws, but really, your telling me the text for sunder itself, the rules it lists under sunder, dont work cause its listed as a table of things you CAN do in combat, and if you happen to sunder that it *and most obviously* counts as a standard action?

So dont go telling me its raw, cause if you read the rule, under sunder, how its WRITTEN it clearly states how its written how it works.

 

[bestone]

There doesnt need to be a faq, cause the rules are quite clear

Heres one, it lists supernatural abilities as a standard action, but under supernatural abilities it states this is the standard, and some work different.

So the argument for the table winning is the table > the text, its a standard action and the text only comes into play when you can activate it.

So are you telling me all supernatural abilities are standard actions, and only if you are able to do a standard action can you use your supernatural ability, regardless of whats actually written under the specific ability? no, because that would be absurd, it depends on what the actually attack says

besides, i've never read one rule stating that you dont read the text of an attack untill you can do it according to the table. That table is placed there for ease, you still very much read the attacks and what they do/how they work.

 

[Hypersmurf]

why you say, isnt it listed with trip grapple and disarm? well those attacks all function very differently, with touch attacks and opposed rolls, they have very specific things in thier entry about how they work.

Disarm uses no touch attack, only an opposed attack roll, and provokes an AoO.

Sunder uses no touch attack, only an opposed attack roll, and provokes an AoO.

How are these functioning 'very differently' again?

-Hyp.

 

[bestone]

Disarm uses no touch attack, only an opposed attack roll, and provokes an AoO.

Sunder uses no touch attack, only an opposed attack roll, and provokes an AoO.

How are these functioning 'very differently' again?

-Hyp.

I dont see how it really matters

p.137 phb attacks of opportunity

An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack

p158 - Sunder - You can use a melee attack with a ......

How does it even matter in the slightest that its listed under the table as
a standard action? Infact, i just read the attacks of opportunity section and it doesnt say anything about not being able to use a standard action. It says you make a single melee attack, and sunder says you can use your melee attack to sunder.

Please again, tell me why this is wrong?

Did you check that link? do you disagree with it?

 

[bestone]

Disarm uses no touch attack, only an opposed attack roll, and provokes an AoO.

Sunder uses no touch attack, only an opposed attack roll, and provokes an AoO.

How are these functioning 'very differently' again?

-Hyp.

Sunder is still an attack, you still roll normally for, and deal damage, its just versus something different, you use the ac of your opponent, but instead of dealing hp damage to him, you deal hp damage to his weapon, assuming you beat his dr (hardness)

Its basically a normal melee attack, on an object, and not a person, its still a normal melee attack

Disarm removes the defenders weapon, or even gives you his weapon if your unarmed, plus if you fail they can immediately attempt a disarm on you

If someone fails to sunder you, you cant immediately attempt to sunder him

How are these not different?