mlangsdorf
First Post
I've seen a Mixed Cleric get a great deal of use out of one, since he gets the Astral Fire damage bonus on his ranged & melee attacks. They're pretty sweet. The extra Turn Undead once a day is just gravy.
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Unhappy Pally - Righteous Rage + Vicious Weapon
- Thread starter SamusekTDS
- Start date
I've seen a Mixed Cleric get a great deal of use out of one, since he gets the Astral Fire damage bonus on his ranged & melee attacks. They're pretty sweet. The extra Turn Undead once a day is just gravy.
DracoSuave
First Post
Crusader weapons are gravy for Divine weapon-users, as is any hybrid Weapon+Implement character.
Alright. 19/14/14 started at either 18/12/13 or 18/11/14... His attributes are pretty poorly placed....
If he wanted to play a holy-damage dealer, Avenger?
Also, knowing when to Valiant Strike and when to Radiant Strike is essential for a Str-pally. If he's Valianting Brutes and Radianting Soldiers, he's not using his tools effectively.
He'd probably have been better off with an 16 Str/14 Cha (pre-racial) build to start. (18/16 after racial) Wisdom could be at 14, Lay On Hands isn't gonna be his bread and butter. For his level 9, wait until Divine Power comes out for some Str-attacks, but until then, a level 1 or 5 will do fine. He'll swap it out level 15 -anyways- so it doesn't matter in the long run.
Also, he should retrain out of Pelor's Divinity feat. It's only worth a take if he's fighting undead -constantly-. Encourage him to go into a two-handed weapon as well. Waraxe just doesn't cut it when Executioner's Axe, well, executes things. Then he'll start to see his damage pile up.
At level four, he can go Weapon Prof: Executioner's Axe, then Weapon Focus for more damage. From there, he can take a multiclass feat. Warrior of the Wild is a popular choice.
Alright. 19/14/14 started at either 18/12/13 or 18/11/14... His attributes are pretty poorly placed....
If he wanted to play a holy-damage dealer, Avenger?
Also, knowing when to Valiant Strike and when to Radiant Strike is essential for a Str-pally. If he's Valianting Brutes and Radianting Soldiers, he's not using his tools effectively.
He'd probably have been better off with an 16 Str/14 Cha (pre-racial) build to start. (18/16 after racial) Wisdom could be at 14, Lay On Hands isn't gonna be his bread and butter. For his level 9, wait until Divine Power comes out for some Str-attacks, but until then, a level 1 or 5 will do fine. He'll swap it out level 15 -anyways- so it doesn't matter in the long run.
Also, he should retrain out of Pelor's Divinity feat. It's only worth a take if he's fighting undead -constantly-. Encourage him to go into a two-handed weapon as well. Waraxe just doesn't cut it when Executioner's Axe, well, executes things. Then he'll start to see his damage pile up.
At level four, he can go Weapon Prof: Executioner's Axe, then Weapon Focus for more damage. From there, he can take a multiclass feat. Warrior of the Wild is a popular choice.
ricardo440
First Post
Yes, Our STR paladin just reached 9th. It was a shock to me that all her new dailies were pretty much useless to her.
I actually allowed another power instead from a higher level that used strength but dropped the effect because it was just stupid that one build of paladin doesn't have a power for them at 9th. I'm going to end the campaign at the end of 10th so there is no promise of excitement at paragon to make up for it.
I'd let him make a new character if he isn't having fun.
Unfortunately, there's only 1 STR-based daily at level 1, and only 1 at level 5, so a Strength based Paladin will already have both of those.
doggywoggy
First Post
Hi all, I am the guy who Samusek is referring to.
I just re-registered now and have been having trouble getting emails from this site to my yahoo account because I lost my old password and couldn't get it back.
Anyway, people's comments in this thread were really helpful to me.
Some points:
1) When I followed the "avenger" build of Paladin (str-based) in the PHB, it was before I had the inclination nor the time to really read through all these sites and think about the Grand Strategy. It's important to play a class that "works", and to me, having to have an 18 / 18 str and charisma, when Con is so important, and let's not forget Wis (lay on hands / day). it's just frustrating to have to split my efforts between Str and Cha and so I decided to keep cha at 14 and str at 18 (level 1 Dragonborn incl racials). I did not know at that point that having an 8 Dex would have allowed me to have no negatives to AC or Reflex (just no positives), otherwise I would have taken that. My DM seems to think the point buy system is flawed. I agree, when we rolled some 3.5 ed characters for an off-game, it was just "fun" without the min-maxiness of hand-chosen stats. That said, why gimp your character by putting points in irrelevant stats? Ok fine, having an 8 Int for a character who thrives on coming up with battle strategy and create ideas is maybe not optimal from a realism POV, but who cares, the rules are not realistic at all.
2) RRot : ok fine, it's too powerful, especially with vicious axes and whatnot. I wanted to do some more damage and this was a really strategic way to make a serious chunk of it whilst using dailies and encounter powers. Also, because it wasn't a god in the default world I'm not opposed to the idea of foregoing that feat. I will, however, say that if Tempus is disallowed, then all of FR material including feats for other classes should be too, in fairness to me. If you can hand-wave away a god in the default pantheon like that, or import selected items / races / paragon paths / feats from another world, I don't see why it's unrealistic that gods are exclusive to one planet. Aside from that, the trouble would become how did my character become a follower...that is my own reason for thinking it's too metagame for switching deities mid-game to something no one else in the game world has heard of.
3) I intend to multi-class into Ranger, regardless of what Divine power adds to Str-based paladins. My choice of War Ax and Shield was defendery and also flavoured for me because I love axes. At level 8 I intend to take Twin-Bladed warrior and this requires me to have a 12 dex at lvl 1 to achieve. Again, in a defendery way, I can still keep my shield for when two weapons is too dangerous (for when I get PMC - Ranger for the Twin Strike At -Will at lvl 11). I saw that on another board and laughed out loud when the guy mentioned a warforged named "Squeaks". My g/f did, too (and thought it was super cutesy. aww). She also likes "Tumpy", my 3.5 ed dwarven war cleric who makes himself super big with enlarge person. MArio-time! yep
4) Having a defender in a parrty of 3 strikers and a warlord makes more sense than me swapping out to e.g. Sorcerer. I waited for the Arcane power to see if I should switch my character to a spell-casting striker and found out I like the melee mechanics better, but it fit the party overall better too. Two rogues and a Warlord needs someone who can lay on hands and also to help flank, and that's what I'm here for. One of the gimpy things I didn't like was how I had only 2 lay on hands per day (allowing other people to use their own healing powers, ugh. one of the crappy things about 4th ed. Healing potions don't heal! Lay on hands, it's not me healing you it's me letting you heal yourself. very cheap). In fact, the whole healing surge thing is very min-maxy and makes clerics much, much less useful than in 3rd edition. In fact, it makes paladins worth much less to. I play in a 2nd ed game where the party cleric was retired and replaced with a paladin, and yes it sucks big time but at least there's "some" healing.
5) Divine challenge sucks, even with a cha > 14 (which I had, now it is 10 or 12, depending on my final re-roll to become ranger-PMC capable). I realized from reading other threads how weak it is, and that you are basically betting against yourself. I.e. you pay for a stat that you hope doesn't get used (i.e. that the mob hits you and thus doesn't take the mark's damage). If I pump up charisma to get a bigger incentive to not ignore my mark, I am wasting those points when using Str-based powers. There's no point in investing in weapon focus feats and war ax and such if you're Cha-based, and I just don't like the flavour of it all. At lvl 1 I didn't read everything up higher levels and didn't realize how gimped str-based pallys are. The best mark is to be had by actually being a "threat" that's hard to ignore. Even with the -2 to hit the rogue, compared with my 23 AC it's still better off eliminating him first, AND taking the paltry damage from my mark. My best way to be a defender is actually to become more striker-ish. Plus waving around two war-axes is oh-so sweet. I was gonna take Scion of Arkhosia at paragon but I think going into ranger will be much more fun than batting my wings and not really being able to fly. Sucky to the max, that one.
6) Deadly ax works great with dual 1-h axes. And I now have a dynamic war ax + 2 allowing me to situationally use it as either a throwing weapon or a halberd for the reach when the need arises. Weapon expertise helps here, and at lvl 8 I'll try for a second dynamic weapon for the coolness of it all (not to forget, summoned armor for when I want to swing from the chandelier and throw my magic ax catching it when I land at the end of my turn). I see this as per "Gauntlet", and that was my favorite arcade game of all time. As for Execution Ax, I can switch my weapon to that for xrta dmg, even without proficiency in it ---basically a free Power Attack feat. Deadly Ax is only useful for non-high crit axes, coincidentally exactly the ones I want to use (halberd, handax, warax). And it's twice as useful with twice as many attacks. For when I'm using my shield in tough spots with bad mobs (yes, I'm an EQ veteran), I'll simply use Holy Strike and get my Str and Wis (20 and 16 now, currently at level 4) bonuses on the dmg instead of the increased dmg from Twin Strike. I like versatility, that's part of why I chose Dynamic Weapons. My next purchase will be a Summoned Layered Plate, for swingy or precarious moves. (or just to take a comfy nap without taking off my armor manually). Plus, it's a permanent backup armor in case a rust monster eats my main armor at higher levels. Or if I want to use subterfuge against NPCs to think I am weaker than I really am. E.g. when I want to lure a mob away from hitting another PC, I disactivate my armor and goad them on to attacking me. Big mistake, pal.
One question to you guys : Does Twin-Strike (ranger at will), allow me to dual throw HandAxes? If so, being a melee-weapon, does it get Str Vs AC or Dex vs AC? I'd love to be able to quickly keep throwing axes all over the place, or even hack one guy next to me and throw the second one to help out the rogue, over there somewhere, and mark his enemy.
In short, yes Sam, I am happy and having fun now and dying to play on monday. I like "acceptable" powergaming, within limits, and actually think dual classing ranger will give me the damage I need to really bring the pain. I'm loving it. That Tempus was striken down, thou hast made me more powerful than thou canst imagine. hehehe.
I just hope now that PHB / Martial Power multi-classing feats aren't banned next.
That should be "Core" enough for ya. The irony in banning Tempus is forcing me to find an option that incidentally deals more damage, over the long run. Which, yes, makes me a happy pally. It will actually make me a better defender too, because unlike in 3rd ed, I can use two weapons without being in light armor, and defending the party relies on me being perceived (rightfully) that I am indeed a grave threat that should not be ignored on the battlefield. Much bigger incentive to target me now than some puny mark damage. Thus the rogues will in fact be better off. The best defense is a good offense, in this case.
I just re-registered now and have been having trouble getting emails from this site to my yahoo account because I lost my old password and couldn't get it back.
Anyway, people's comments in this thread were really helpful to me.
Some points:
1) When I followed the "avenger" build of Paladin (str-based) in the PHB, it was before I had the inclination nor the time to really read through all these sites and think about the Grand Strategy. It's important to play a class that "works", and to me, having to have an 18 / 18 str and charisma, when Con is so important, and let's not forget Wis (lay on hands / day). it's just frustrating to have to split my efforts between Str and Cha and so I decided to keep cha at 14 and str at 18 (level 1 Dragonborn incl racials). I did not know at that point that having an 8 Dex would have allowed me to have no negatives to AC or Reflex (just no positives), otherwise I would have taken that. My DM seems to think the point buy system is flawed. I agree, when we rolled some 3.5 ed characters for an off-game, it was just "fun" without the min-maxiness of hand-chosen stats. That said, why gimp your character by putting points in irrelevant stats? Ok fine, having an 8 Int for a character who thrives on coming up with battle strategy and create ideas is maybe not optimal from a realism POV, but who cares, the rules are not realistic at all.
2) RRot : ok fine, it's too powerful, especially with vicious axes and whatnot. I wanted to do some more damage and this was a really strategic way to make a serious chunk of it whilst using dailies and encounter powers. Also, because it wasn't a god in the default world I'm not opposed to the idea of foregoing that feat. I will, however, say that if Tempus is disallowed, then all of FR material including feats for other classes should be too, in fairness to me. If you can hand-wave away a god in the default pantheon like that, or import selected items / races / paragon paths / feats from another world, I don't see why it's unrealistic that gods are exclusive to one planet. Aside from that, the trouble would become how did my character become a follower...that is my own reason for thinking it's too metagame for switching deities mid-game to something no one else in the game world has heard of.
3) I intend to multi-class into Ranger, regardless of what Divine power adds to Str-based paladins. My choice of War Ax and Shield was defendery and also flavoured for me because I love axes. At level 8 I intend to take Twin-Bladed warrior and this requires me to have a 12 dex at lvl 1 to achieve. Again, in a defendery way, I can still keep my shield for when two weapons is too dangerous (for when I get PMC - Ranger for the Twin Strike At -Will at lvl 11). I saw that on another board and laughed out loud when the guy mentioned a warforged named "Squeaks". My g/f did, too (and thought it was super cutesy. aww). She also likes "Tumpy", my 3.5 ed dwarven war cleric who makes himself super big with enlarge person. MArio-time! yep
4) Having a defender in a parrty of 3 strikers and a warlord makes more sense than me swapping out to e.g. Sorcerer. I waited for the Arcane power to see if I should switch my character to a spell-casting striker and found out I like the melee mechanics better, but it fit the party overall better too. Two rogues and a Warlord needs someone who can lay on hands and also to help flank, and that's what I'm here for. One of the gimpy things I didn't like was how I had only 2 lay on hands per day (allowing other people to use their own healing powers, ugh. one of the crappy things about 4th ed. Healing potions don't heal! Lay on hands, it's not me healing you it's me letting you heal yourself. very cheap). In fact, the whole healing surge thing is very min-maxy and makes clerics much, much less useful than in 3rd edition. In fact, it makes paladins worth much less to. I play in a 2nd ed game where the party cleric was retired and replaced with a paladin, and yes it sucks big time but at least there's "some" healing.
5) Divine challenge sucks, even with a cha > 14 (which I had, now it is 10 or 12, depending on my final re-roll to become ranger-PMC capable). I realized from reading other threads how weak it is, and that you are basically betting against yourself. I.e. you pay for a stat that you hope doesn't get used (i.e. that the mob hits you and thus doesn't take the mark's damage). If I pump up charisma to get a bigger incentive to not ignore my mark, I am wasting those points when using Str-based powers. There's no point in investing in weapon focus feats and war ax and such if you're Cha-based, and I just don't like the flavour of it all. At lvl 1 I didn't read everything up higher levels and didn't realize how gimped str-based pallys are. The best mark is to be had by actually being a "threat" that's hard to ignore. Even with the -2 to hit the rogue, compared with my 23 AC it's still better off eliminating him first, AND taking the paltry damage from my mark. My best way to be a defender is actually to become more striker-ish. Plus waving around two war-axes is oh-so sweet. I was gonna take Scion of Arkhosia at paragon but I think going into ranger will be much more fun than batting my wings and not really being able to fly. Sucky to the max, that one.
6) Deadly ax works great with dual 1-h axes. And I now have a dynamic war ax + 2 allowing me to situationally use it as either a throwing weapon or a halberd for the reach when the need arises. Weapon expertise helps here, and at lvl 8 I'll try for a second dynamic weapon for the coolness of it all (not to forget, summoned armor for when I want to swing from the chandelier and throw my magic ax catching it when I land at the end of my turn). I see this as per "Gauntlet", and that was my favorite arcade game of all time. As for Execution Ax, I can switch my weapon to that for xrta dmg, even without proficiency in it ---basically a free Power Attack feat. Deadly Ax is only useful for non-high crit axes, coincidentally exactly the ones I want to use (halberd, handax, warax). And it's twice as useful with twice as many attacks. For when I'm using my shield in tough spots with bad mobs (yes, I'm an EQ veteran), I'll simply use Holy Strike and get my Str and Wis (20 and 16 now, currently at level 4) bonuses on the dmg instead of the increased dmg from Twin Strike. I like versatility, that's part of why I chose Dynamic Weapons. My next purchase will be a Summoned Layered Plate, for swingy or precarious moves. (or just to take a comfy nap without taking off my armor manually). Plus, it's a permanent backup armor in case a rust monster eats my main armor at higher levels. Or if I want to use subterfuge against NPCs to think I am weaker than I really am. E.g. when I want to lure a mob away from hitting another PC, I disactivate my armor and goad them on to attacking me. Big mistake, pal.
One question to you guys : Does Twin-Strike (ranger at will), allow me to dual throw HandAxes? If so, being a melee-weapon, does it get Str Vs AC or Dex vs AC? I'd love to be able to quickly keep throwing axes all over the place, or even hack one guy next to me and throw the second one to help out the rogue, over there somewhere, and mark his enemy.
In short, yes Sam, I am happy and having fun now and dying to play on monday. I like "acceptable" powergaming, within limits, and actually think dual classing ranger will give me the damage I need to really bring the pain. I'm loving it. That Tempus was striken down, thou hast made me more powerful than thou canst imagine. hehehe.
I just hope now that PHB / Martial Power multi-classing feats aren't banned next.
That should be "Core" enough for ya. The irony in banning Tempus is forcing me to find an option that incidentally deals more damage, over the long run. Which, yes, makes me a happy pally. It will actually make me a better defender too, because unlike in 3rd ed, I can use two weapons without being in light armor, and defending the party relies on me being perceived (rightfully) that I am indeed a grave threat that should not be ignored on the battlefield. Much bigger incentive to target me now than some puny mark damage. Thus the rogues will in fact be better off. The best defense is a good offense, in this case.
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Obryn
Hero
Just taking bits & pieces here and there...
I don't think banning RRoT would necessitate banning the whole FRPG. I'm not sure why that would go hand in hand. I wouldn't feel the need to ban the whole PHB2 if I banned Expertise, for example.
If you like the flavor of Tempus, and the deity exists in the campaign, go with it. I'd just house-rule his Channel Divinity feat to be mechanically identical to (for example) Kord.
-O
RRoT isn't a problem, flavor-wise, necessarily. It's just way better than any other Channel Divinity feats - and arguably better than almost any other feat in general.
I don't think banning RRoT would necessitate banning the whole FRPG. I'm not sure why that would go hand in hand. I wouldn't feel the need to ban the whole PHB2 if I banned Expertise, for example.
If you like the flavor of Tempus, and the deity exists in the campaign, go with it. I'd just house-rule his Channel Divinity feat to be mechanically identical to (for example) Kord.
It does, but you use Dex for the attack. The power specifies which attribute you use for the weapon. Using Strength for Heavy Thrown weapons is a feature of the Ranged Basic Attack, not a feature of the weapon itself.
-O
invokethehojo
First Post
Have you thought about letting try to remake the character as a hybrid fighter/paladin?
In next months update to the character builder the hybrid rules will be added, so they are pretty official even though they are still in the playtest phase.
This would allow the player to keep the same character and role(if he wants to), you can keep your story elements that are based around him, and he can take some fighter powers to fill in for the paladin ones he doens't like.
When Divine power comes out in a few months he'll have more choices and you will have had time to try the hybrid rules, then you can decide if he switches back to full paladin, keeps the hybrid, or just starts over with a new role.
In next months update to the character builder the hybrid rules will be added, so they are pretty official even though they are still in the playtest phase.
This would allow the player to keep the same character and role(if he wants to), you can keep your story elements that are based around him, and he can take some fighter powers to fill in for the paladin ones he doens't like.
When Divine power comes out in a few months he'll have more choices and you will have had time to try the hybrid rules, then you can decide if he switches back to full paladin, keeps the hybrid, or just starts over with a new role.
cmbarona
First Post
A quick answer to your last question: no, all ranged weapons used with Twin Strike use Dex.
The longer answer is that everything is power-based in 4e. Remember that even Ranged Basic Attacks are an at-will power. Technically, the only reason you use Str for Ranged Basic Attacks with Heavy Thrown weapons is because of the special clause allowing that in the Ranged Basic Attack power.
EDIT: ninja'd
The longer answer is that everything is power-based in 4e. Remember that even Ranged Basic Attacks are an at-will power. Technically, the only reason you use Str for Ranged Basic Attacks with Heavy Thrown weapons is because of the special clause allowing that in the Ranged Basic Attack power.
EDIT: ninja'd
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Obryn
Hero
Sorry - I have to come back to this because I missed it... Charisma-based Paladins have quite a few weapon-based attacks that use their Charisma. So, your waraxes and weapon focus could work just fine, even with a straight Charisma build.
I understand you'd rather do a Strength build, and that's just fine. But there's nothing wrong with a Charisma build using big weapons.
-O
