Unpopular opinions go here

[overgeeked]

Gary Gygax did not invent D&D. He just adapted Dave Arneson's Blackmoor notes and packaged it for sale.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

"...Gygax and Arneson were co-creators of D&D, in at least the crucial sense that Gygax would never have worked toward such a game without incorporation of Arneson's vision, and Arneson would never have realized the publication of such a game without the structure that Gygax provided it."

-Jon Peterson, accurately.

 

[Scribe]

Dave Arneson did not invent D&D. He just adapted Dave Wesely's Braunstein games to a dungeon crawl and then ran a session for Gary Gygax.

Gary Gygax did not invent D&D. He just adapted Dave Arneson's Blackmoor notes and packaged it for sale.

"...Gygax and Arneson were co-creators of D&D, in at least the crucial sense that Gygax would never have worked toward such a game without incorporation of Arneson's vision, and Arneson would never have realized the publication of such a game without the structure that Gygax provided it."

-Jon Peterson, accurately.

So wait, if I adapt a game from 5e, can I invent D&D?

 

[cwallach]

Dave Wesely had the key idea of a player taking the role of a character in a game. He refereed various non-dungeon craw games that Arneson played in. Arneson took this idea and mechanics from Chainmail (Gygax and Perren) and ran games. Gygax originated most of the mechanics, wrote them up, and published.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

So wait, if I adapt a game from 5e, can I invent D&D?

Sure. You, too, can join the Justin LaNasa all-stars!

 

[Reynard]

Dave Arneson did not invent D&D. He just adapted Dave Wesely's Braunstein games to a dungeon crawl and then ran a session for Gary Gygax.

Gary Gygax did not invent D&D. He just adapted Dave Arneson's Blackmoor notes and packaged it for sale.

"Invent" is a tough word to get a handle on in this case. Where is the line between iteration and invention?

 

[overgeeked]

"Invent" is a tough word to get a handle on in this case. Where is the line between iteration and invention?

You can’t iterate without an invention already existing. It’s iterations all the way down to Prussian Kriegsspiel…which is an iteration on other games…

 

[CleverNickName]

You can’t iterate without an invention already existing. It’s iterations all the way down to Prussian Kriegsspiel…which is an iteration on other games…

I've been referring to D&D as "Weird Chess" for years, ever since I first used a battle mat.

 

[Reynard]

You can’t iterate without an invention already existing. It’s iterations all the way down to Prussian Kriegsspiel…which is an iteration on other games…

Exactly my point. You can't say either Gygax or Arneson "invented" D&D. Either together they invented it (which is where I sit on the issue) or it's just one step in a long chain of games

 

[Emberashh]

That said, video games are decades ahead in design. Many video games have a unity of design, theme, game play loop, mechanics, fiction, etc that is almost completely unknown in RPGs. RPG designers seem so afraid of the label "video gamey" that they ignore the absolute wealth of advances in game design seen in that industry. And yes, most, if not all, of it can translate into RPGs.

I am resurrecting this comment from the depths to acknowledge that, if not intentionally, I am being seen. Ive read a lot of RPGs by now. Hell, Ive read reread about 100 of them just in this past week.

I still get a lot more on average when I look at video games and how they do certain things.

And overall, Ive always found the aversion to video games to just be bizarre. One of the earliest lessons i I had re: game design, and the lesson I think made running TTRPGs really click for me, was that regardless of the system, the mechanics, or the intent of play, what matters is that whatever is happening, the "gameplay" as it were, is fun and endlessly repeatable even if entirely removed from all the trappings.

Video games have long since understood that appeal, and its what makes cRPGs (and Id presume JRPGs) so successful despite the fact that they're critically limited in comparison to their tabletop counterparts.

Plus, Im a mid-millenial who started with those videogames long before tabletop, and what appeals to me about tabletop is that the freedom is much higher than even the most open video games.

But that doesn't mean I still don't want the same fun I grew up enjoying immensely. I don't think its a coincidence that I find my own game consistently gravitating towards the dream hybrid of all of my favorite video and tabletop games, if not mechanically then definitely in spirit.

A sequence of random events does not make a story.

Counterargument: The Voyage to Arcturus