Use Magic Device provides something for nothing

[photon1966]

Hello again, as you all have been so useful in the past I and my party have yet another quandry.

Basically is seems that Use Magic Device allows you to make a skill roll and get something and yet where does the fuel for that something come from.

In my Sunday game the party was faced by a door which required a Dwarven Cleric or Paladin, to expend a turn to unlock it. Now at first the party didn't know this but the rogue figured he'd try his luck with UMD. I felt it would fail out right as he wasn't providing any positive energy to fuel the door opening. He felt that as the players handbook said basically the Lidda character could activate the item to make holy water he could do the same with the door. I hadn't recalled that example in the players and when I read it, it just seemed wrong! Now as the case happened he rolled a one and got cursed but thats another issue.

My thoughts on this are that a wand of fireballs has already got the energy in it and all the rogue has to do is fake being a wizard of certain level and he can use that wand. Or if the item was a x/day item and the same rogue could 'fake it out' so to speak and activate it x times. We figure as a general rule only be able to activate something once then wait an hour before another try can be attempted.

But for an item that needs something, like a certain spell, or a turn or a wild shape, if this is fueling the effect then how can the rogue do what he does? Now the thought that come to my mind now is maybe the turn isn't the fuel or is simple a catalyst and the Rogue is faking the catalyst but I just find the concept that the rogue can fake a turn and make 8 vials of holy water a day, with just 8 skill rolls, while a Cleric with good Cha and Bonus feat improved turning andding another 4 would be needed to match this.

I just wondered if anyone else had similar or related issue with the skill? I have no problem it being used to activate magic items like wands and scrolls and the like, but items that have a particular 'energy' need which they aren't able to provide should be workable by them.

Thanks

 

[Guillaume]

My understanding of UMD has always been that it required a Spell Trigger or Spell Completion Item, like rods, staves, scrolls or wands, to be used. I doesn't allow you to creat a magical item (holy water) or to open a door that responds to a certain class of PC. For that last one, I would rule on a high Open Lock roll (DC30, perhaps) ?

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, there's some debate as to whether the PHB example is actually valid, because the item requires a user to expend a turn undead attempt, whereas the best UMD can do is make you act as if you had turn undead attempts (which would help if you had an item that, for instance, gives a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength to anyone who can turn undead).

In this case, a UMD check would not have opened the door by similar logic.

 

[Alpha Polaris]

In my Sunday game the party was faced by a door which required a Dwarven Cleric or Paladin, to expend a turn to unlock it.

The SRD puts it that way:

Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

The way I understand this, the rogue with ranks in Use Magic Device may pretend he has the ability to turn undead, but he cannot actually turn undead. The point is, most items require you to possess a given ability, not to use it, so most of the time, it's ok. But if you have to expand one turn attempt, then UMD is definitely not the way to go. So nope, no opening the dwarven gate, and no holy water assembly line either.

 

[nittanytbone]

Good answers above regarding emulation.

As far as the "where does the energy come from?" question, that's up to personal interpretaton and is campaign specific. My personal thought is that as a charisma based skill, UMD comes from sheer willpower and force of personality. The character literally "imagines" himself to be a ____ so hard that it actually works, or they so passionately try to activate an item blindly that it actually goes off.

 

[Saeviomagy]

Here's my point:
UMD lets you use stuff.

Using stuff is fun.

Even just TRYING to use stuff is fun.

Saying "no, that simply doesn't work for no readily apparent reason, blah blah gods, blah blah positive energy" is boring and unfun.

So - let them use stuff. It's fun.

On a second point: what's the big thing that a rogue does? He opens doors.

Is it fun to have a door that the rogue, no matter how well prepared he is, cannot open?

No.

So let the rogue open the door. It's fun.



Actually, if you ask me, a door that can only be opened with a specific thing (ie - channeling energy) sounds an awful lot like a door that's locked, albeit very well. DC 35 open locks sounds good.

 

[Corsair]

Here's my point:
UMD lets you use stuff.

Using stuff is fun.

Even just TRYING to use stuff is fun.

Saying "no, that simply doesn't work for no readily apparent reason, blah blah gods, blah blah positive energy" is boring and unfun.

So - let them use stuff. It's fun.

On a second point: what's the big thing that a rogue does? He opens doors.

Is it fun to have a door that the rogue, no matter how well prepared he is, cannot open?

No.

So let the rogue open the door. It's fun.



Actually, if you ask me, a door that can only be opened with a specific thing (ie - channeling energy) sounds an awful lot like a door that's locked, albeit very well. DC 35 open locks sounds good.

Is it fun to let a character do everything all the time?

No.

Is it fun to have some things that work differently, whether they be locked doors, or four dimensional puzzles?

Yes.

 

[FireLance]

I personally take issue with the idea that Use Magic Device provides something for nothing. You need to put in skill points that could have been spent on another skill. It seems to me that Use Magic Device could indeed be used in that way, but the rogue would have to make two checks: one to emulate a race (DC 25, unless the rogue was already a dwarf) and one to emulate a class feature (DC 20, or more if the Turn Undead attempt had to come from a cleric of a certain minimum level).

Of course, if you want to, you can make a distinction between magic items that must be "powered", i.e. the energy from the turn undead attempt is required to operate the item, and items that can be "triggered", i.e. the power to operate the item is stored internally, and the item only needs to detect the presence of a turn undead attempt to function, in much the same way that a wand or staff only needs to detect the utterance of the command word to function.

However, I personally find too much trouble to make that distinction, and I like to encourage players to come up with creative ways to overcome a challenge, even if it was not the way that I originally planned for the problem to be overcome (insert vitriolic comments about railroading DMs here ). Like I said, I'd allow it to work.

 

[irdeggman]

Firelance makes the strong point.

A UMD check is required for each feature being emulated not a single check.

Multiple checks equal mutliple chances for failure. If you want tomake things more challenging then layer on features to require multiple checks.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

Is it fun to let a character do everything all the time?

No.

Is it fun to have some things that work differently, whether they be locked doors, or four dimensional puzzles?

Yes.

I agree. Rogues already have a lot of things they can do, and a couple of things only they can do. There's just some things they can't, unless they multiclass, and boo hoo, lets deal with this another way. This door requires not just the ability to turn undead, but the expenditure of a turning check. I would not allow a simple UMD check to replace a blast of positive energy.

Now, if the cleric in the party wasn't a dwarf, could the rogue use UMD to fool the door into thinking the turn came from a dwarf? Sure. Could a rogue attempt a UMD check with a cure spell providing the positive energy? Yes, I would be fine with that, UMD to emulate class feature, one for race and one for triggering a wand or scroll or whatever you are using to cast the cure spell. But any item which requires the expenditure of a supernatural class feature with limited uses per day can be safely said (IMHO) to be fueled by that class feature, not merely triggered by it. No UMD check can fuel a device, only trigger it.