Using Detect Evil AKA Another Paladin Thread!

[Crothian]

Actually, you will if you are a cleric (the Aura ability). So, a Lawful Neutral cleric of Wee Jas will detect as evil.

THe aura does, not the person.

 

[Crothian]

IIRC, it went something like: A paladin walks into a bar and detects evil. The bartender isn't a very nice person. He thinks about killing his wife, but knows that he won't get away with doing it. Since getting caught isn't on his agenda, he doesn't actually do it. However, he thinks about it often. Indeed, someday he might do it, if he thinks he can do it without getting caught. So, he detects as evil.

But this isn't defined in the game that doing X (in this case thinking evil thoughts) makes someone evil. So, this becomes an in game thing that each DM has to decide.

 

[Glyfair]

But this isn't defined in the game that doing X (in this case thinking evil thoughts) makes someone evil. So, this becomes an in game thing that each DM has to decide.

I disagree. The PHB states "A creature's general moral and personal attitudes are represented by it's alignment..."

So, to believe that evil things are proper, without doing them, to be evil. Certainly, having any "evil" beliefs doesn't necessarily make you evil. It's still about the overall character. However, it doesn't have to be made on actions. (I'll admit the actions are likely there in most situations, but even that doesn't mean they are punishable).

 

[Crothian]

I disagree. The PHB states "A creature's general moral and personal attitudes are represented by it's alignment..."

So, to believe that evil things are proper, without doing them, to be evil. Certainly, having any "evil" beliefs doesn't necessarily make you evil. It's still about the overall character. However, it doesn't have to be made on actions. (I'll admit the actions are likely there in most situations, but even that doesn't mean they are punishable).

THen this opens up the need for players to tell the DM all the thoughts of their characters if that is going to be one of the basis' used for determining a person's alignment. That just makes things too complicated.

 

[jgbrowning]

Actually Joe I was referring to the fact that even if a person is evil, the paladin would still have to prove that they have done something wrong in order to punish him. I can't see too many cities where paladins can go around attack people based on the fact that they detected as evil.

I figured as such.

And as people have already stated, there are a number of ways to be considered evil without actually committing an evil deed themselves.

Personally, I think someone who hasn't peformed an evil act is neutral, regardless of thought, enjoyment, belief and they only become evil when they perform an action (such as not helping someone they could help because they want to watch and enjoy their suffering), just as I think someone who hasn't peformed a good act is neutral, regardless of thought, enjoyment, or belief. However, there is obviously a difference in opinion on that matter.

P.S. Joe, when is the trade book that you are working on coming out?

Suzi's about 3/4th of the way done. If things go as planned, it looks like out in Feb in PDF and a few months later in dead-tree format. Glad you're interested.

joe b.

 

[Crothian]

Personally, I think someone who hasn't peformed an evil act is neutral, regardless of thought, enjoyment, belief and they only become evil when they perform an action (such as not helping someone they could help because they want to watch and enjoy their suffering), just as I think someone who hasn't peformed a good act is neutral, regardless of thought, enjoyment, or belief. However, there is obviously a difference in opinion on that matter..

I agree with this and the same applies to being good. Thinking it just isn't enough, actions matter.

 

[jgbrowning]

Keith Baker had an example with this in regards to some question or another about paladins detecting evil (I thought it might have been in a Dragonshard, but I don't see it).

IIRC, it went something like: A paladin walks into a bar and detects evil. The bartender isn't a very nice person. He thinks about killing his wife, but knows that he won't get away with doing it. Since getting caught isn't on his agenda, he doesn't actually do it. However, he thinks about it often. Indeed, someday he might do it, if he thinks he can do it without getting caught. So, he detects as evil.

Lots of people are in this situation. Their general beliefs are enough to make them evil, but they actually haven't done anything (or at least anything significant) expressing those beliefs. You can't go around killing everyone whose moral basis is evil, just because of their beliefs (well, you could, but there would be major consequences).

The reason why I don't think this is so is because when you switch it around it seems bit silly to me.

For example: say the bartender *thinks* about helping old lady Griffen put up a new roof but he never gets around to it. Does his thinking good things make him detect as good?

In my book, no, he's neutral be that with evil or good thoughts. Action is thought made physical and, to me at least, the only way to determine if someone is something other than neutral.

joe b.

 

[Glyfair]

TFor example: say the bartender *thinks* about helping old lady Griffen put up a new roof but he never gets around to it. Does his thinking good things make him detect as good?

Well, overall I'd say it does go past "thoughts" and into "beliefs." In the bartending killing his wife, if the bartender thought it was the proper thing to do (illegal thing, but proper), then he's evil.

If he's constantly thinking about doing good deeds, believes that doing the good deeds is the right thing to do, but just is lacking on the execution part, then he would be good based on that.

Of course, the sticking point with alignment as a whole is when you have ambigious characters. What if both paragraphs above are true? He believes killing his wife is right, and he believes that doing good deeds is right.

Keith has another situation (yeah, I keep bringing them up, but alignment issues are often discussed about Eberron) about an evil cleric of the Silver Flame (very good church, organizatinal like the Catholic Church in some ways). He strongly believes in many key tenets of the church, particularly defeating evil. However, in his opinion, killing an entire village to be sure that an evil lycanthrope is destroyed, for example.

Now, Keith's take is that this is an evil cleric (the discussion is about how you can be an evil person worshipping a good religion, but still meeting the requirements of believing in that religion). Still, I see this could be considered a complicated situation to argue. He believes in doing good things, but by evil means. What alignment is that?

Still, the original poster was looking for reasons to limit the paladin using his ability on everyone. Limiting it's use to "detect the villian" or "detect enemies," is one legitiamte way of doing this.

 

[jgbrowning]

Well, overall I'd say it does go past "thoughts" and into "beliefs." In the bartending killing his wife, if the bartender thought it was the proper thing to do (illegal thing, but proper), then he's evil.

Well the good bartender believes helping little old ladies survive through the winter is a good thing, but if he doesn't actually help fix her roof, I most certainly wouldn't call him good.

Of course, the sticking point with alignment as a whole is when you have ambigious characters. Keith has another situation (yeah, I keep bringing them up, but alignment issues are often discussed about Eberron) about an evil cleric of the Silver Flame (very good church, organizatinal like the Catholic Church in some ways). He strongly believes in many key tenets of the church, particularly defeating evil. However, in his opinion, killing an entire village to be sure that an evil lycanthrope is destroyed, for example.

Now, Keith's take is that this is an evil cleric (the discussion is about how you can be an evil person worshipping a good religion, but still meeting the requirements of believing in that religion). Still, I see this could be considered a complicated situation to argue. He believes in doing good things, but by evil means. What alignment is that?

That's the alignment that blows to hell the D&D alignment system.

Personally, I'd place him as neutral leaning towards evil. He mostly does good, but occasionally does an evil act in the pursuit of good. I wouldn't put him as good, however, because I think good knows that real "goodness" occurs by doing good by action and result. Much like mugging (beating unconscious) someone to get some money to pay for the orphanage isn't really a good act, but it's not quite like mugging someone for ale and whores. If you mug people a lot and think you're justified, I'd fall to the side of "your evil but you do good things ocassionally" while if you only mugged under the most dire circumstances, tried to find a known crimal to mug, and then even felt sorry for it I might even consider you "your good, but you've done evil things occasionaly."

I'm not a big fan of D&D alignment because such decisions have been made integral to the game while still being mostly a cause for argument and unpleasantness.

joe b.

 

[Rev. Jesse]

In case anyone is interested, one of the reasons that I asked about this was because I wanted to know if there was a way within the RAW that I could stop a paladin from detecting evil on every single person that he meets.

Everyone else is looking at this from a mechanical stand point, but the issue isn't really with the rules, but with the player taking up time and making the game less enjoyable.

Well, if the player is wasting your time and your players' time, then take the player aside, before or after a session, and explain that having his character detect evil all the time is boring, dull, and making the game less fun for everyone. Offer guidance on when the paladin should or should not use the detect evil capability. That should take care of the problem.

Do not screw the player out of the spell-like ability, or make it obvious to everyone, just because it messes with your plot! Not only will it weaken the character, but it will also will present problems later on if other characters develop spell-like abilities. It may also lead to
player resentment.

If you are ok with the paladin detecting evil all the time and just want to hide some evil baddies without messing with the rules, the alignment system or the detect spell, then use red herrings and flood the market with potions of Undetectable Alignment (which cost, what, 25 or 50 gp to make).