D&D 5E Using Suggestion To Thwart Zone of Truth

[plisnithus8]

If Suggestion is used to make a creature believe something is true, can the spell be used as a means of bypassing a Zone of Truth since the creature has made itself believe the falsehood is truth?

Can a creature cast Suggestion on themselves in order to accomplish this?

 

[Khelon Testudo]

Hmm... the Suggestion spell doesn't seem to address beliefs, only actions.

 

[plisnithus8]

Hmm... the Suggestion spell doesn't seem to address beliefs, only actions.

The suggestion could be a course if action to answer a certain question with a specific falsehood.
Zone of Truth only prevents a “deliberate lie.”
Is “deliberate” the opposite of “forced,” making this lie similar to forced movement not triggering opportunity attacks?

 

[Baldurs_Underdark]

Suggestion: "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable."

Believing something that a creature knows is not true is not "reasonable", so you're gonna need a higher level spell to make someone believe something is true (Modify memory might do the trick).

As a DM, I would let Zone of Truth prevail over a suggestion. If the NPC (or PC) is forced to speak an untruth by a Suggestion spell, and a Zone of Truth is cast, the result would be that the NPC remains quiet and does not speak at all. To me, it is a case of Specific overrides General. Zone of Truth has only one purpose. Suggestion can be applied in many ways.

 

[Lyxen]

Suggestion: "The suggestion must be worded in such a manner as to make the course of action sound reasonable."

Believing something that a creature knows is not true is not "reasonable", so you're gonna need a higher level spell to make someone believe something is true (Modify memory might do the trick).

This is a purely personal interpretation. While the intent is not to make suggestion overpowered, what is "reasonable" is purely subject to the interpretation of a DM. But the point is that suggestion only suggests a course of action. So, you can order someone to lie, but it would still be a lie and therefore detected by zone of truth. But believing in a lie is not a course of action, so I would say it's simply not applicable, see below.

As a DM, I would let Zone of Truth prevail over a suggestion. If the NPC (or PC) is forced to speak an untruth by a Suggestion spell, and a Zone of Truth is cast, the result would be that the NPC remains quiet and does not speak at all. To me, it is a case of Specific overrides General. Zone of Truth has only one purpose. Suggestion can be applied in many ways.

I don't agree with the way you are applying the rule, just because a spell is more general does not mean that a more specific spell is trumped every time. The suggestions themselves are very specific, for example.

The suggestion could be a course if action to answer a certain question with a specific falsehood.

And that would work, but if the target knows it to be a falsehood, it would be a lie and detected by zone of truth. The only case that would work for me would be if the target does not know the truth and is asked to answer in a specific way, because then it's not a lie, but it prevents a caster from using it on himself, since he knows the pronouncement to be a lie.

 

[plisnithus8]

Unfortunately Modify Memory wouldn’t work on the caster themselves because it specifically says “another creature’s memories.”

I guess Modify Memory cast on another creature is the cleanest solution for bypassing ZoT.

 

[Lyxen]

Unfortunately Modify Memory wouldn’t work on the caster themselves because it specifically says “another creature’s memories.”

I guess Modify Memory cast on another creature is the cleanest solution for bypassing ZoT.

Or you can use Suggestion if it just involves giving a specific answer as long as the creature does not know that it contradicts the truth. But another creature is needed.

Note also that in 5e, there is no such thing RAW as failing a Save on purpose, so even suggestion on oneself is not certain to work.

 

[plisnithus8]

Note also that in 5e, there is no such thing RAW as failing a Save on purpose, so even suggestion on oneself is not certain to work.

The DMG p. 238 states: a saving throw is “almost never done by choice…a saving throw is a split-second response to the activity of someone or something else.”

Almost never is not “no such thing” so there are potential times someone can choose to (or not to?) make a saving throw. I haven’t seen RAW list these so it might just be up to interpretation.

A saving throw throw is a response to something/one not one’s self.

So the specific of Modify Memory could over rule the general of not having a choice.
Calling for a saving throw against one’s self might fall under the category of not needing to make a roll if the outcome is not in question.

 

[Lyxen]

The DMG p. 238 states: a saving throw is “almost never done by choice…a saving throw is a split-second response to the activity of someone or something else.”

Almost never is not “no such thing” so there are potential times someone can choose to (or not to?) make a saving throw. I haven’t seen RAW list these so it might just be up to interpretation.

A saving throw throw is a response to something/one not one’s self.

So the specific of Modify Memory could over rule the general of not having a choice.
Calling for a saving throw against one’s self might fall under the category of not needing to make a roll if the outcome is not in question.

Two things:

• You are mistaking the "almost never done by choice" with "I an choose to fail". These are completely different, the first one says that, in most cases, you will not choose because you will be the target of a spell, but it also says that even in those cases when it's done by choice, it IS done, so you will roll a save.
• You are forgetting a very important point of the 5e rules, things only do what they say they do. If a spell tells you that it has a saving throw, you will have to roll it, as there is no instance in the rules that contradicts that rule.

To support this, there is an tweet by JC that tells you exactly the above, which I'm not referencing directly since it's not official, but he says that, in some cases he might allow it, which goes to show that it's not in the RAW and probably not even in the RAI.

It does not prevent you to implement this in your games, of course, but check with the DM first.

 

[Dausuul]

Or you can use Suggestion if it just involves giving a specific answer as long as the creature does not know that it contradicts the truth. But another creature is needed.

Even if the creature knows it contradicts the truth, I would argue that the following is a legitimate use of suggestion:

"The King's oppression of his people made his assassination inevitable. Who wielded the blade is irrelevant--he himself brought about his own death. So saying that you didn't kill him is true... from a certain point of view."

But then, I'm probably biased; I detest spells like zone of truth.