Using time travel as an in-game tool

[Creamsteak]

It's been a long time since I've started a thread like this, so bear with me. I'm working on an idea I've had to add a fourth (or maybe it's fifth or six, who knows) dimension to my game. The basic idea is that, in addition to the normal aspects of the game, I want the players to be able to manipulate current in game events through time travel and manipulation of the timeline. I want it to be possible for the players in the current adventure to be able to affect this adventure both in the theoretical past and the theoretical present.

An example to set the tone: The adventuring party engages in a combat that they have little chance of winning without good aligned weapons or some form of magic. The working assumption of the whole campaign is that someone, somehow, always makes it through the battle. The characters can, therefore, call in a "favor" from their future selves. The future selves could, for instance, travel back in time to before the battle and leave magic item x there for the characters to come across in the fight. Or, the party wizard of the future!!! could have called down a fireball or other spell on the bad guy at a critical point in the fight. The most drastic solution would be for the future heroes to step in and save the day.

Some basic concepts that I've worked out are that I want the time manipulation of current events to be limited. However, since I want these events to be based on the Players choices (and especially there creativity), the number needs to be in the Players hands. So a value (similar to action points I guess) has to exist. The points would be a sort of commodity to be used for both necessity and desire. For instance, the greediest character could have his future self "hide a treasure" for himself to find by spending his points. A more altruistic character might use them only out of necessity.

As the DM, I want to allow every opportunity for the "future" to exist as soon as possible. For instance, if the 1st level party used there time manipulation ability to call down a fireball (cast by a 5th level version of the party wizard), then I would try to provide the opportunity to manipulate time as an in-game effect when the party was around 5th level. Of course, the party could decide NOT to throw the fireball spell for whatever reason. Thus creating a paradox. And thereby presenting me with a little fun cause and effect to play with for the characters.

In the above example (1st level party is saved by the magic fireball from the sky that they believe there future counterparts would create), if the fireball had not appeared, what would have happened? There are a few ways to deal with this. One would be direct relationships like "Bob the fighter is crippled/injured/dead/missing/etc. because the fireball never saved him from the monster." There could also be more "tricky" effects that don't immediately make sense to the party because of the change in events.

On the other hand, problems that take a long time to come to culmination sound pretty fun too. The secret door that magically opened for the group on their second adventure, in-fact, required a huge number of future events to happen, and years of time were spent specifically making sure everything happened exactly as it did. A related idea I had was that perhaps the party travels back in time to get a copy of a "common" scroll of a long forgotten spell, only to find that bringing the old spell to the future ends up setting off a number of historical events leading perhaps to the campaigns "problem."

Repeatedly "abusing" the timeline would slowly result in gradually worse and worse problems. At first, the wizard's coinpurse is missing. Then, it seems Bob the fighter's magical sword isn't so magical. Next, divine authorities start to take notice of the alterations to the timeline, and try to correct things manually. If things continue to break down, I'd like to have a gradual "breaking" down of the world in the classic "oh no, the universe is unraveling" or maybe something akin to "they've awakened the elder gods."

The actual mechanism for changing time will likely involve the use of portals or ancient artifacts of some kind. I havn't really decided on this yet, but it's really tertiary. Maybe one or more of the characters gradually unlocks chronomancy or some-such magic.

So, I'm looking for ideas, considerations, and other bits from anyone willing to offer something up. Also, if anyone wants to take the "player's point of view" and think about what players might try to do creatively with this sort of tool, it could be helpful. I havn't really worked out all the details, so I'm just at the planning stage. It sounds like a handful, but I think with enough of the right preperation I can make it work.

I've also been considering using this idea with Call of Cthulhu or a modern/future setting, but that's really besides the point. Any tangential ideas about this could be neat to see as well.

 

[The Grackle]

back to the future

raaaaugh... it makes my brain hurt just thinking about this.

Okay wait. The characters can reach back from their future selves to the present? So basically they can do X number of cool things as long as they can explain it later. Or do they travel even further into the past & then set things up for their earlier selves to encounter? or both of those?

I'd say you have to make some rule/guideline that the further you reach back the more of these points yr spending. Otherwise the first thing everyone will do is ask for really high end magic items and/or loads of cash.
One way to do this is my increments of time, which seems more feasible, or by difference in character level, which is easier to balance. That way they could ask for 10 favors from their level 2 selves or 1 favor from their level 20 selves (but you would probalbly want to weight them on a curve). A cool thing is if they waited to throw that example fireball until the wizard was 6th level it would cost extra- so they'd want to pay off their future-debt promptly.
If you did it by time it would require more guessing about where they're going to be and what they'll be capable of.


Besides being able to call their future selves they should be able to send "unrequested" aid to their historic selves too. Like they figure out some mystery, or discover someone's not to be trusted, etc. and then they send a letter to their old selves. The world changes b/c of it, but maybe not how they expected. It would be risky b/c everything that happened between the two points would happen differently this time. Maybe they avoided dangers the first time they didn't even know about.

So it would be safe to grant requests from your past self, but dangerous to send things back w/o being asked. Another way you could really mess with their heads would be to have a request from their past selves come in, but it's a request they don't remember making... Implying that the past will soon be changed in the near future... Whoa.


One thing you should do is make the characters in the unique position that they are somewhat unaffected by the alterations in time- at least their own memory should be unaltered. That way each time there's a shift they have to figure out what happened differently in the new time line they now inhabit- why they have this scar, who this new guy in the party is, why they're now a ranger, etc.

Have you ever read "transdimesional turtles" for the TMNT RPG? It had a good time travel system, but not really applicable for what you've got going here. One thing about it was if someone altered the past, the future got edited in waves. The first waves were detectable only by time-travel tech, letting people know that someone had altered the past. In successive waves, bigger and bigger alterations would take place until everything would be changed to fit the new timeline. In the last waves people would start fading away and everyone's memory would be altered to match the new past. It's cool and it gives the players time to react to enemies trying to cut them out of history or time to patch up something that turns out to be a huge mistake. They might even send a message to their past selves not to mess with their past selves!

What would be crazy about a game like this is you would have a totally fluid history and past. Only the present would really exist. It's like some Zen meditation exercise for RPGs.

Whoever the BBEG is, he should be able to do this time manipulation stuff too. So occasionally horrible things from the future fly back at the PCs trying to kill them or make life difficult. At first they don't even know where this stuff is coming from b/c, after all, they haven't even met the guy yet. Despite all the wacky time flow stuff they would have one thing that remained a constant- the enemy.

Okay. That's all I've got for the moment. I'm gonna go take some aspirin.

 

[Creamsteak]

raaaaugh... it makes my brain hurt just thinking about this.

That probably has more to do with the unordered "stream of thought" typing I've put together so far. It's the natural order of things for me, to go from chaotic to orderly.

Heh... but it's still funny.

Okay wait. The characters can reach back from their future selves to the present? So basically they can do X number of cool things as long as they can explain it later. Or do they travel even further into the past & then set things up for their earlier selves to encounter? or both of those?

Both. It would probably be safer to pull a Bill and Tedd's Excellent Adventure style, "in the future, we travel into the past, and steal our wallets so they can't be stolen by the thieves!" Than it would be to "let's travel back in time and kill the thieves." Just something for consideration.

It should even be possible to travel to the future for whatever reason. Perhaps, circumstances could happen where the bad guys turn out to be the players, and they figured it out in time to travel to the future and try and knock off "themselves" one at a time or something. Just another idea to throw in the oven I guess.

I'd say you have to make some rule/guideline that the further you reach back the more of these points yr spending. Otherwise the first thing everyone will do is ask for really high end magic items and/or loads of cash.

I'd rather not use extra rules too much. Something akin to Karma would be easier to implement and less "hard and fast." The character who's first "time-wish" was to find a solid gold statue of himself in his backyard would earn negative karma, while the character that plans to make amends for his misdeeds before they happen might accumulate some degree of positive karma (depending on what specifically, and the outcome). The less direct the interference, the less negative karma (so directly participating in a battle would result in huge negative karma, while subtley changing the circumstances of the battle such as laying a trap before the battle happened would have less negative karma).

That's what I'm thinking right now. Tell me if you've got something in mind though.

One way to do this is my increments of time, which seems more feasible, or by difference in character level, which is easier to balance. That way they could ask for 10 favors from their level 2 selves or 1 favor from their level 20 selves (but you would probalbly want to weight them on a curve). A cool thing is if they waited to throw that example fireball until the wizard was 6th level it would cost extra- so they'd want to pay off their future-debt promptly.
If you did it by time it would require more guessing about where they're going to be and what they'll be capable of.

I'd put the burden of "proof" on the players. If the player of the wizard were to use a higher level wizard spell than he could cast, that might be fine. But if he starts taking fighter levels after this (and therefore changing his expectations and therefore the circumstances) this would change things and he would accumulate both the negative karma and possibly suffer some consiquences of the changes. For instance, if calling the spell of a higher level helped him gain his magical staff of magicking, he might find that it fails, malfunctions, or is even missing.

And trying to "fix" the mistake could have positive or negative effects based on how it's done. If they "fix" the mistake by making more changes to history, they might end up finding the world very different when they get back.

Besides being able to call their future selves they should be able to send "unrequested" aid to their historic selves too. Like they figure out some mystery, or discover someone's not to be trusted, etc. and then they send a letter to their old selves. The world changes b/c of it, but maybe not how they expected. It would be risky b/c everything that happened between the two points would happen differently this time. Maybe they avoided dangers the first time they didn't even know about.

Oh yeah. Definitely. I'd definitely need to be both creative and on my toes at the same time.

So it would be safe to grant requests from your past self, but dangerous to send things back w/o being asked. Another way you could really mess with their heads would be to have a request from their past selves come in, but it's a request they don't remember making... Implying that the past will soon be changed in the near future... Whoa.

Now that's a good idea. Also, it might not necessarily be "safe" to grant requests to your past self, but certainly "safer" than interfering without being asked.

Maybe I could even throw some possible "tricks" in there. Perhaps they find the exact same magic item twice. Identify spells say that they are, indeed, the exact same item. Not identical, the same. That could throw them for a loop about whether they should send the new one back in time to themselves or something.

One thing you should do is make the characters in the unique position that they are somewhat unaffected by the alterations in time- at least their own memory should be unaltered. That way each time there's a shift they have to figure out what happened differently in the new time line they now inhabit- why they have this scar, who this new guy in the party is, why they're now a ranger, etc.

Definitely. I'm not sure how I want to convey this yet, though. Also, I'm thinking about the question of whether to keep copies of their "old" character sheets or not. It could be important, but I also think it might be the case that small changes could make drastic differences in there "take" on themselves.

Have you ever read "transdimesional turtles" for the TMNT RPG? It had a good time travel system, but not really applicable for what you've got going here.

Nope. Sounds neat though.

One thing about it was if someone altered the past, the future got edited in waves. The first waves were detectable only by time-travel tech, letting people know that someone had altered the past. In successive waves, bigger and bigger alterations would take place until everything would be changed to fit the new timeline. In the last waves people would start fading away and everyone's memory would be altered to match the new past. It's cool and it gives the players time to react to enemies trying to cut them out of history or time to patch up something that turns out to be a huge mistake. They might even send a message to their past selves not to mess with their past selves!

Seems like a good way to "stagger" the change. And the past selves choosing to "not mess with there past selves" is such a classic episodic conclusion, that I would love to get that reaction from the players just once.

What would be crazy about a game like this is you would have a totally fluid history and past. Only the present would really exist. It's like some Zen meditation exercise for RPGs.

Or it could also be set up so that some events "try" to happen nomatter what. Like history fighting to keep certain constants, and those who mess with those constants end up risking becoming targets by something far more sinister. Perhaps some sort of artifacts or such have such a heavy influence on time that they struggle and resist against changes effecting them. Bring in some Elder God worship or something.

Whoever the BBEG is, he should be able to do this time manipulation stuff too. So occasionally horrible things from the future fly back at the PCs trying to kill them or make life difficult. At first they don't even know where this stuff is coming from b/c, after all, they haven't even met the guy yet. Despite all the wacky time flow stuff they would have one thing that remained a constant- the enemy.

Oh yeah, good ideas all. Also, don't forget horrible things from the past too.

Okay. That's all I've got for the moment. I'm gonna go take some aspirin.

Heh, sorry I guess. Not much I can do about that. Thanks though.

 

[random user]

Well I think karma idea has some merit; I would add to it compounding interest. After the event is fulfilled, the extra "time-debt" accrued from the compounded interest will gradually dissipate. If I understand your concept of it correctly, this would solve a couple problems:

1. It gives incentive for players who call in favors to pay them back as soon as possible to avoid accuring compounding interest, so you don't have a lot of dangling plot/time lines.

2. It prevents players from abusing the timeline, as the more negative karma you accrue, the harder it becomes to do anything else with the timeline and may eventually cause your own erasure.

For example, you could call in a favor for a +5 greatsword at level one, but this would cause a large amount of "time-debt." Since the principle amount of karma is high, the interest is going to accrue quickly. Until you are able to give your former self the +5 sword, you're going to gain more negative karma. This can start off with something minorly annoying, such as a headache, progress through something like -2 to all skill checks, gradually evolving into sometime turning incorporeal when you try to do something (like you go through a door instead of opening it, or your sword goes through your opponent), and eventually causing you to lose all cohesion (ie you die) as the timeline repairs itself by simply completely wiping your existance away.

As a result of this, you can't be ressurected (since you never were alive) and all people forget that you exist (it's been a while but I believe this is similar to using balefire the Wheel of Time series?). I think that this would be preferable to having the world unravel. (Really, imo, no player should be that powerful. You do not unravel the universe -- the universe unravels you.)

3. Players would be careful about what they chose to do. Instead of simply taking the simple approach, "Let's cast a fireball" maybe they try something more subtle since it will acrrue less negative karma and less of a time-debt. Of course this may be hard to adjudicate, but if done right can be pretty cool.


I think the biggest danger will come in the form that players think they are invincible because their future selves can get them out of any problem. For some players this might not be a problem, but for other players, the lack of risk can be a turnoff.

Something I would definately tell the party is something along the lines of, "Yeah well it's nice when your future selves bail you out, but remember that if you die, you're future selves won't exist to help you," and let them think about that for a while.

Just my 2cp

 

[Creamsteak]

Well I think karma idea has some merit; I would add to it compounding interest. After the event is fulfilled, the extra "time-debt" accrued from the compounded interest will gradually dissipate. If I understand your concept of it correctly, this would solve a couple problems:

1. It gives incentive for players who call in favors to pay them back as soon as possible to avoid accuring compounding interest, so you don't have a lot of dangling plot/time lines.

2. It prevents players from abusing the timeline, as the more negative karma you accrue, the harder it becomes to do anything else with the timeline and may eventually cause your own erasure.

For example, you could call in a favor for a +5 greatsword at level one, but this would cause a large amount of "time-debt." Since the principle amount of karma is high, the interest is going to accrue quickly. Until you are able to give your former self the +5 sword, you're going to gain more negative karma. This can start off with something minorly annoying, such as a headache, progress through something like -2 to all skill checks, gradually evolving into sometime turning incorporeal when you try to do something (like you go through a door instead of opening it, or your sword goes through your opponent), and eventually causing you to lose all cohesion (ie you die) as the timeline repairs itself by simply completely wiping your existance away.

And, I wouldn't forget that there future selves (if they are even alive) would want to avoid changing events, especially in those very early stages of the game. Perhaps sneaking a cure light wounds potion into a set of potions that the players would find anyway would be a good move, but sending them a magic weapon of that magnitude is way beyond wise. However, I might allow something similar (like the greedy character asking for way too much gold), in an effort to make an example out of greed at some point.

As a result of this, you can't be ressurected (since you never were alive) and all people forget that you exist (it's been a while but I believe this is similar to using balefire the Wheel of Time series?). I think that this would be preferable to having the world unravel. (Really, imo, no player should be that powerful. You do not unravel the universe -- the universe unravels you.)

Well, I don't want to make the "fading away" symptom something prominent. I'd rather have sudden changes that directly reflect a change in the past. For instance, let's say that they asked for help with some sort of combat. If they never fulfill that help, they might find that they have suffered injuries that they were not aware of. Perhaps bob the fighter is missing 3 teeth and his maximum hitpoints are 2 to 5 points lower.

3. Players would be careful about what they chose to do. Instead of simply taking the simple approach, "Let's cast a fireball" maybe they try something more subtle since it will acrrue less negative karma and less of a time-debt. Of course this may be hard to adjudicate, but if done right can be pretty cool.

And I love it when they get subtle.

I think the biggest danger will come in the form that players think they are invincible because their future selves can get them out of any problem. For some players this might not be a problem, but for other players, the lack of risk can be a turnoff.

I don't mind it so much if they "think" they are invincible. That's always a symptom of the power curve in d20, and it always seems like people start to see there limits (and the vastly more powerful challenges) they get to face.

Something I would definately tell the party is something along the lines of, "Yeah well it's nice when your future selves bail you out, but remember that if you die, you're future selves won't exist to help you," and let them think about that for a while.

Definitely.

 

[BlackMoria]

A problem I think you may have is one of information.

How do you keep a secret or any mystery from the characters? Don't know who the BBEG operating from the shadows? - just ask your future selves, because they have already gone through the process and found out who the BBEG is. Don't know the location of the Mystic Floppy Hat of Fizbane? - ask your future selves, who already not only know where the hat is and what guards it, they already have it in their possession.

Information is the sort of thing that will have the least amount of Karmic debt, because is an intangible and not a material thing, and therefore the least likely thing to cause a paradox in comparison to a material boon from the past or future.

If I was player in your campaign, I would use the time shift capabilities to lay bare all the secrets. Knowledge is the real power.

Here is an example of what I mean:

The party is looking for an artifact in a dungeon. The fact that my present self is undertaking this quest means my future self has also undertaken the quest and completed it. So I ask for information from my future self - what is the best route to take, where are all the traps and ambushes, what monsters are where, etc etc.

Now, my present self can beeline it for the artifact on a direct route, avoiding the dangerous searching for the artifact in a monster filled dungeon. I avoid or disarm every trap along the route (since I know where they are and what they do) and I have the right buff spells and spells in place for the monster than lairs yon beyond the next door, because I know what it is. I avoid the other monsters not along the route, preserving my resources for the meaningful fights which I just can't avoid.

So, what stops me from doing this.

 

[Piratecat]

You're a brave, brave man. You may want to steal some rules from other classic time travel games like Timemaster. For instance:

- You can never be in two times at the same time. If you are, your reality unravels and you cease to exist in a paradox. Time travelers are VERY careful to keep track of what times they've gone to.

- If someone else changes the past, you need to make some sort of intelligence-based skill roll in order to recognize the fact. Knowledge (history) might do it. Otherwise, whatever changes occur seem normal.

 

[Henry]

Repeatedly "abusing" the timeline would slowly result in gradually worse and worse problems. At first, the wizard's coinpurse is missing. Then, it seems Bob the fighter's magical sword isn't so magical. Next, divine authorities start to take notice of the alterations to the timeline, and try to correct things manually. If things continue to break down, I'd like to have a gradual "breaking" down of the world in the classic "oh no, the universe is unraveling" or maybe something akin to "they've awakened the elder gods."

You could adapt the Aetherco's Continuum game concept of Fragmentation. Make them aware somehow that, if elements change from the timeline they know, there must be a direct cause-and-effect back to an explanation of how it deviated, and WHY IT WASN'T DIFFERENT THE FIRST TIME THEY WENT THROUGH IT. In other words, say the Fireball from Heaven happened, because they said it did. They have a required future (Continuum calls it a "Yet") to make this thing happen. The longer they wait to make this thing happen, the more fragmented their existances become. They find it harder to accomplish actions, they have memory lapses, etc. As their bodies become fragmented along all possible outcomes. As soon as they make it happen, their "Yet" is fulfilled, and they are restored.

Yets could even extend to death! Let's say they know they die in a certain battle. They can do whatever they want through the time travel, but in the end they MUST return to that battle to die. If they die before they die, then it fragments their very existance to smithereens!

 

[Creamsteak]

A problem I think you may have is one of information.

How do you keep a secret or any mystery from the characters? Don't know who the BBEG operating from the shadows? - just ask your future selves, because they have already gone through the process and found out who the BBEG is. Don't know the location of the Mystic Floppy Hat of Fizbane? - ask your future selves, who already not only know where the hat is and what guards it, they already have it in their possession.

Information is the sort of thing that will have the least amount of Karmic debt, because is an intangible and not a material thing, and therefore the least likely thing to cause a paradox in comparison to a material boon from the past or future.

Actually, wouldn't this create an immediate paradox? If you know something through means of your future selves, then wouldn't you create a loop that hinges on you learning from your future selves? Of course, you could attempt to get around this by "asking for a clue" instead of asking for a specific answer (which, assuming it would create a paradox would need to be denied). It is also possible that (assuming you have two players, A and B), present A asks Future B what the answer is. Then present A, while knowing, keeps the secret from present B, so that present B will find out the information independently of present A, and future B will be able to answer the question thus preventing a paradox.

If I was player in your campaign, I would use the time shift capabilities to lay bare all the secrets. Knowledge is the real power.

But if you learned all this knowledge from your own self, would you have ever really learned it?

The basic item paradox and the basic information paradox are not all that different. A paradox is created when you have an infinite loop with no entrance or exit. Lets say you have "magic item x" from the future. If you don't create/find the original item wherever it was found by your future self, and you send your own weapon back in time to yourself at some point, you've created a paradox. The same sword is repeating the same stream of time infinitely, now no-longer having an original copy, just the one stuck in a loop of time.

Here is an example of what I mean:

The party is looking for an artifact in a dungeon. The fact that my present self is undertaking this quest means my future self has also undertaken the quest and completed it. So I ask for information from my future self - what is the best route to take, where are all the traps and ambushes, what monsters are where, etc etc.

As I said above, that is exactly the kind of situation that your future self will want to avoid changing. If he alters the past in such a way, he creates a problem. Now, for extreme circumstances (save his father's life, let's say), he could try such. However, that alone will create a problem. He needs to change the circumstances that caused him to want to save his father. He needs to "convince" his past self to fulfill the same duty. How does he do that? Maybe, after screwing up time enough times trying to save his father and then finding that by saving his father "he was never able to go back in time to try and save him" he forces himself to either fake his father's death -or get his one -- kill his father himself.

Which, is one "theme" I'm thinking of going for.

Now, my present self can beeline it for the artifact on a direct route, avoiding the dangerous searching for the artifact in a monster filled dungeon. I avoid or disarm every trap along the route (since I know where they are and what they do) and I have the right buff spells and spells in place for the monster than lairs yon beyond the next door, because I know what it is. I avoid the other monsters not along the route, preserving my resources for the meaningful fights which I just can't avoid.

So, what stops me from doing this.

Tell me if your not satisfied with my answers.

 

[Creamsteak]

You're a brave, brave man.

I'm thinking of a very small group for this. Two players playing Gestalt classes sounds like a good fit, or three normal characters. And I'll have to have a very high degree of trust to keep things going smoothly.

You may want to steal some rules from other classic time travel games like Timemaster.

Is this it: http://www.orphyte.com/catalog/timemaster.html

For instance:

- You can never be in two times at the same time. If you are, your reality unravels and you cease to exist in a paradox. Time travelers are VERY careful to keep track of what times they've gone to.

- If someone else changes the past, you need to make some sort of intelligence-based skill roll in order to recognize the fact. Knowledge (history) might do it. Otherwise, whatever changes occur seem normal.

I think I'll use the more classic variant of the first, which is that "you don't ever want to change your own circumstances." Basically, although you could travel back in time to help yourself in a fight, you don't want to do that if it screws up how you remember that day. You don't ever want "past you" to experience events differently, or you accumulate negative karma. The more drastic the change, the more negative karma.

As for the second bit, that's definitely accurate.