D&D 3E/3.5 v4: Challenge Ratings pdf (3.5 compatible)

[Verequus]

Hi Kavon!

Finally I could post this - sometimes work can kill me, even if it is roleplaying related (campaign stuff, EoM now out, my internship, etc., etc. oops, internship is wrong here ) Okay... Where was I? Ah yes.

I will simply send you the d20 Modern-point-buy PDF, because you missed my question, if you wanted it - it isn't on the web anymore, so you have to get it from me.

Saying "your point-system" is getting old - how about a new name? KAR for Kavon's Advancement Rules - better, isn't it?

Another use for KAR: Savage Species can be simply mimicked - or even a race, which can develop physical abilities freely!

I'm not sure what you mean with this, but I assume you're talking about how U_K rated the character wealth.
Do you mean that I could make it so that as the players gain CP, only 4/5th of it is free for them to use? I believe U_K suggested that in one of his earlier replies to me as well, but it didn't help with the problem I have with spending XP/Soul Essence on 'Wealth Allowance'.

I think it would be a nice idea to have something like 'Flavor Points' or something. Things that don't actually change the character's physical or mental aptitude, but do effect the world arround him/her.
Things like.. how attractive they are, personality traits, what status/responsibilities they have (cleric, ninja, bodyguard, whatnot), as well as how wealthy they are.

Yes, I meant it like U_K. The 1/5th could be Flavor Points, but the first problem is that ALL of them are for the wealth issue. The second problem is, that all points, be it FPs or CPs, count toward CR - if you distribute FPs in addition to CPs, then the rule "1 level = 1 CR" is broken - if their sum remains 200, then how do you justify the different amounts of FPs and CPs every level? That gaining Soul Essence has a dependency to some unknown force? The best is still to handle wealth "behind the screen", as a simple side effect of advancement. Otherwise the more abstract rules d20 Modern could be used. But the disadvantage of those wealth rules is their advantage - you can't simple want to spend some GPs and know immediately if you loose a part of your wealth bonus unless the DC is already prepared or you know the conversion instantly. As a sidenote, using flavor points for the appearance isn't striking, because it is normally a use for the Charisma ability - you are meddling with things, which aren't to meddle with.

Regardless, how you solve this issue, you have to take the wealth factor into account for calculating the CRs - but please allow other DMs simply to use KAR in my way. This can be only accomplished if you restrict the free CPs to 160 or stock up the CPs to 500 alternatively for your use to 400.

Besides, in what improvements did you succeed? And hopefully, not everything here is outdated.

 

[Kavon]

Hi Kavon!

Hey RuleMaster Didn't expect a reply anymore (I actually kind of forgot about it )

I will simply send you the d20 Modern-point-buy PDF, because you missed my question, if you wanted it - it isn't on the web anymore, so you have to get it from me.

Sure, if it's less than 1 MB you can send it to my hotmail thingy (arthegaea@hotmail.com). My pop3 email has the tendency to think that all attachments are evil, so I won't bother with that one.

Saying "your point-system" is getting old - how about a new name? KAR for Kavon's Advancement Rules - better, isn't it?

lol, sure, it's fine with me

Another use for KAR: Savage Species can be simply mimicked - or even a race, which can develop physical abilities freely!

Yes, that was my intention, pretty much.

if you distribute FPs in addition to CPs, then the rule "1 level = 1 CR" is broken - if their sum remains 200, then how do you justify the different amounts of FPs and CPs every level?

Wooh, big text, not sure where to reply (I'm tired XD).
Well, I haven't really given it much though, really. I was focusing on other parts of the system (not that I really did all that much in the last months).
I'm thinking of seeing how much impact having money has on characters when I'm done with all the things I'm planning to make. I suspect it won't be nearly as important as it is in Core rules, which I personally think is an improvement (or else I wouldn't be doing it, right? ).

That gaining Soul Essence has a dependency to some unknown force?

The soul is the true character, so to speak. The soul invests itself in magical things, as well as improving the skill of the body (the physical form of the soul.. the manifestation). The greater the Soul, the more (true) power the character has (of its own). The Soul is made out of spirits (many spirits merge at the creation of a Soul, and when the Soul grows, the total amount of spirits within the Soul increases as well). Souls and spirits are found in all living things (flora and fauna). Kinda like the japanese kami..
Deities are very powerful (great) Souls, with additional responsibilities (one could have about the same power as a deity, but you wouldn't be an actual 'deity' unless you have the responsibilities of one..).
Things like wealth and how popular you are don't really fit in this.. Not really an answer to your question, I guess, but I guess this is the best I can do to explain it at this point x_x

As a sidenote, using flavor points for the appearance isn't striking, because it is normally a use for the Charisma ability - you are meddling with things, which aren't to meddle with.

Well, I never really agreed with the notion that Charisma should be tied with how attractive you are. Sure.. it might have some influence, but it's not like 18 = super model, 6 = troll. More so since I believe Charisma to be a 'mental' ability score.. So.. I figured I'd remake the 6 ability scores to my own needs.. (still not really done with them though..)

Regardless, how you solve this issue, you have to take the wealth factor into account for calculating the CRs - but please allow other DMs simply to use KAR in my way. This can be only accomplished if you restrict the free CPs to 160 or stock up the CPs to 500 alternatively for your use to 400.

Hmm... I guess the thing is.. I'm not really all that worried about it not being compatible with Core rules. I'm pretty much making my own system, with my own ideas and opinions on how things should be done, and it might be somewhat based off of d20 rules, but I'm certainly not going to restrict myself just so that it will be easy to adapt to Core rules, or something like that. If I ever so choose to make it that way, I could look into it, but untill then, I'm really not going to worry about it.
Um.. What was I talking about again? *tired* z___z
Oh, wealth thingy. Like I said (sorta), I'll see how the other things develope before I make any decisions on how to handle it.

Besides, in what improvements did you succeed? And hopefully, not everything here is outdated.

Hehe, you could've asked this first, you know?
Hmm... I think I pretty much answered this question by now, I guess

Hmm.. Things I've been doing on this KAR thing lately... The latest thing would be me toying with an alternative HP system.. Which is probably too complicated for pen and paper, bah
Before that I think I was messing around with weapons and 'weapon arts', which I didn't finish (didn't look quite right yet.., I'll get there though).
Hmm... Something with spells too... Ranges I think it was.. Blast radius.. Things..
Other than that I've been mostly busy with flavor things for my world (deities, histories, statistics of moons, calendars, the solar system, things like that).... And I think I seriously need to go to bed now.. o___o

*clutters U_K's thread with other stuff again*

 

[Burne]

A little clarification needed...

I don't have the pdf here, so I don't know what CR a Thri-Keen is. But, a PC has wealth equal to his CR, as 1 CR = 1 PC lvl. So, if the Thri-Keen is CR 4 (just as an example), he would need 4 lvls of wealth, which would add 0.8 CR for a total of 4.8 CR. Since you round down in U_K's system and with the silver rule and all, he fits in just fine with a 4th lvl party.

Just to be clear, what you are doing above is creating a new monster based on the Thri-keen called "Thri-keen with 4th level PC Equipment", now is the 0.8 CR for equipment added before the Golden rule? It doesn't seem right to just add 0.8 CR to 4 and then round down again (since post-silver rule the CR has already been rounded down).

The dragon would have a CR of 15 + (15*0.2) = CR 18. You will then have to add +0.6 CR for the last 3 lvls, for total CR 18.6. (a better formula is CR * 1.24 = CR with equipment). The dragon would be a higher ECL (before silver rule, mind you) than the party, as CR = ECL.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
CR 15 + (15*0.2) = 18, results in a 'dragon' with 15th level PC equipment

CR 15 + (15*0.2) = 18 +((18 - 15) * 0.2) = 18.6 (assumedly rounded down to 18), results in a 'dragon' with 18th level PC equipment.

Thanks for your time.
burne

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

A little clarification needed...

Just to be clear, what you are doing above is creating a new monster based on the Thri-keen called "Thri-keen with 4th level PC Equipment", now is the 0.8 CR for equipment added before the Golden rule? It doesn't seem right to just add 0.8 CR to 4 and then round down again (since post-silver rule the CR has already been rounded down).

This has been discussed. AFAIR, do not apply the golden rule to CR when used for determining ECL. Fx, using the golden rule on PCs would make many templates 'half price'.

So add the 0.8 to the base CR and then apply the silver rule. The reason I'm creating the "Thri-keen with 4th lvl equipment' is that it's necessary. A PC should have PC equipment. How are you going to keep him from getting it? Better to just calculate it into CR using a proper value, instead of the WotC madness, where equipment has different ECL value depending on what type of creature you are....

Correct me if I'm wrong.
CR 15 + (15*0.2) = 18, results in a 'dragon' with 15th level PC equipment

CR 15 + (15*0.2) = 18 +((18 - 15) * 0.2) = 18.6 (assumedly rounded down to 18), results in a 'dragon' with 18th level PC equipment.

Correct. The result is a 18th lvl dragon character.
To get a 15th lvl dragon character, he would need to be a base CR 14 Dragon (before silver rule). CR 15/1.054 = 14.23.
(starting CR * 1.054 = ECL after silver rule)

Thanks for your time.
burne

Anytime

 

[Burne]

Re: Monster equipment

From what you have posted and my reading to the early sections of this thread, I have synthesized the following for my player's. See if it hurts you. Note that I am using fractional CR's for some purposes.

Monster Unit’s with PC/NPC Levels and Equipment
Units only receive starting gold based upon their PC or NPC level, for example, a Hill Giant Fighter 1 is a CR10 has the standard Hill Giant gear (Great Club, Hide Armor, Rocks) and 100gp from his fighter level. Units without PC or NPC levels may purchase additional starting gold up to their CR+2. You can’t use this “equipment” CR to justify purchasing more equipment.

Calculating the new CR of a “Monster with Equipment” unit:
(Golden Rule CR value [Column 2] + (# of levels of PC equipment * 0.2)) * 0.85 [Silver Rule], then round down. After rounding down, add the CR from PC/NPC levels.
Levels of NPC equipment could be bought this way as well.

Example, Hill Giant Fighter 1: 10.55 + (9 * 0.2) = 12.35 * 0.85 = 10.4975, rounded down to 10+1 for the fighter level. A Hill Giant Fighter 1 with 10th level PC equipment is a CR11. If we had chosen to give this unit 12th level equipment the math would be 10.55 + (9 * 0.2) = 12.35 * 0.85 = 10.4975, rounded down to 10+1.4 for the fighter level and extra equipment, for a total of CR11.4.

Example two, Gargoyle Rogue 6: By default this unit is CR10 (4+6) and has 21,600gp(6*6*6*100) to spend. We could give this unit up to 12th level equipment (10+2), but he only needs 10th. Our new unit, Gargoyle Rogue 6 with 10th level equipment, has a CR of 10. In this case, the CR didn’t change.
4.86 + (4 * 0.2) = 5.66 * 0.85 = 4.811, rounded down to 4+6 for the rogue levels

Now on to templates...

This has been discussed. AFAIR, do not apply the golden rule to CR when used for determining ECL. Fx, using the golden rule on PCs would make many templates 'half price'.

Are many templates supposed to be "half price" for monsters? An extreme example, Paragon Balor (pb).

From v4.pdf
Balor: 35.021,31.5105,31,28
Paragon: +28.19

Possible CR's for a pb
1. Add to base, then apply rules as normal
35.021+28.19 = 63.211, Golden Rule(half over 28 CR) = 45.6055 45 42
2. Add to Golden Rule value
31.5105+28.19 = 59.7005 59 56
3. Add to CR (no math at all)
28+28.19 = 56.19

Method 2, has the problem that not every monster has had the Golden Rule applied, (ie Method 2 is ambiguous when used with a bebilth)

Forgetting about monster's for a second and back to PC usage, Natural Were-rat Human Fighter 3 = 3+2.43 = 5?
Vampire Human Fighter 5 = 5+7.075 = 12?
Vampire Hill Giant = 10.55+7.075=17?

I'm trying to 'boil' down the CR rules to a few guidelines my players can then use.

 

[Burne]

Having now read the everything in this thread, I can say that alot of the questions coming up have been answered in the v5 doc with the revision of the CR's in light of racial ability mods and a simple method of generating 'equiped' CR. Is there any way I could get ahold of such a thing? Do you accept credit cards?
Burne

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

Is there any way I could get ahold of such a thing? Do you accept credit cards?
Burne

The CR system will be part of U_K's 'Immortals Handbook', soon to be released
Check the thread on this board. You could try and email U_K to get a copy of v.5, but he has changed a bit for the final version (v.6), AFAIK.
The Immortals Handbook will be in 4 pdf parts and later a complete printed book. The pdfs will be available at rpgnow and they do accept credit cards.

 

[Burne]

Sorcica, do you have a moment to comment on the template questions above, I'm just not getting it, and I _know_ the first thing my players will ask is "What about Templates"

Burne

 

[Matrix Sorcica]

From v4.pdf
Balor: 35.021,31.5105,31,28
Paragon: +28.19

Possible CR's for a pb
1. Add to base, then apply rules as normal
35.021+28.19 = 63.211, Golden Rule(half over 28 CR) = 45.6055 45 42
2. Add to Golden Rule value
31.5105+28.19 = 59.7005 59 56
3. Add to CR (no math at all)
28+28.19 = 56.19

Method 2, has the problem that not every monster has had the Golden Rule applied, (ie Method 2 is ambiguous when used with a bebilth)

No. 1 is correct.

Forgetting about monster's for a second and back to PC usage, Natural Were-rat Human Fighter 3 = 3+2.43 = 5?
Vampire Human Fighter 5 = 5+7.075 = 12?
Vampire Hill Giant = 10.55+7.075=17?

Okay. Were-rat: The result is 5, yes. But always remember that the 2 'lvls' of wererat needs equipment if it is to be a PC. So that would add +0.4 to CR. But that's still CR 5, rounded down (plus silver rule still applies.)

Vampire: Apply silver rule to vampire template (this I know from an old question to U_K from myself). So take the CR 5 for fighter, add 7.075 * 1.054 (CR with equipment after silver rule) = 5 + 7.45 = CR 12.

Hill giant vampire with PC equipment: (10.55 + 7.075) * 1.054 = CR 18.58.

Hope this answers your questions. I didn't understand a word of your 'monster unit' synopsis for your players (sorry). But take a look at this. I'm back at the pc sometime Sunday, so I can't answer any questions before that.

 

[Knight Otu]

I figure this would be the right thread for this...

Some of you might be aware of BOZ's and my Creature by Poll series down in the Creature Catalog forums, and currently, we are creating a dragon that is truly powerful. I've gone over the dragon's powers with UK's pdf and an Excel file, but I had to find out that the file has suffered from "updating" it to a newer excel version. I calculated the first few CRs, but from a certain point, I just winged it as using the file was more of a hindrance than a help. If someone would look over the Challege Ratings, and maybe the wyrmling LA, I would be thankful.