Value of low-light vision?

[Lucas Blackstone]

Making low light vision have double the intended vision range is a huge benefit. I don't know how to explain that except as what it is. It's not meant to be that big of an advantage. It's meant when there is only dim light that you can see clearly in that dim light. Dim light is supposed to be very weak. Not a light source equal to other light sources ( Which doubling would make it )

I could see extending light sources by 1 square, maybe 2 tops. Doubling is too much of a change to keep it balanced. The reason they set up light sources the way they did is because that is where they wanted the light to end. I understand people saying, well hey, the light would still be there but weaker ( dim light) at the edge of the light source, but when you double the light source that's no longer the edge, it's a much larger then intended area to be lit.

 

[katahn]

There's kobolds with candles on their foreheads in WoW too

I'm pretty sure that was the entire point of the "kobolds with candles, let's go take their candles" comment.

 

[Jhaelen]

I think the new lighting rules fit the new rules on encounter distances and the maximum ranges for ranged combat:

- Encounter distances are supposed to range from 5 to 10. In completely open areas as far as 20.

- Longbow range is 20/40. That's the longest range you'll currently get (barring feats).

So, there's really not much need for seeing anything farther away.

 

[KarinsDad]

Making low light vision have double the intended vision range is a huge benefit.

...

I could see extending light sources by 1 square, maybe 2 tops. Doubling is too much of a change to keep it balanced. The reason they set up light sources the way they did is because that is where they wanted the light to end. I understand people saying, well hey, the light would still be there but weaker ( dim light) at the edge of the light source, but when you double the light source that's no longer the edge, it's a much larger then intended area to be lit.

Balance? So, are you claiming that doubling the range in 3E WAS unbalanced? I think you are overstating the balance issue. Remember, monsters with Low Light would gain the same advantage.


What is the benefit of Low Light Vision if it has virtually no rules effect in the game?

DM: "The torch lights up this 20 feet section"
Player: "So how far do I see with my Low Light Vision?"
DM: "20 feet"


And actually, I do not think they did it the way they did it because that is where they wanted the light to end. I think they did it that way for simplicity (i.e. get rid of 3e shadowy illumination).

 

[Lucas Blackstone]

Balance? So, are you claiming that doubling the range in 3E WAS unbalanced? I think you are overstating the balance issue. Remember, monsters with Low Light would gain the same advantage.


What is the benefit of Low Light Vision if it has virtually no rules effect in the game?

DM: "The torch lights up this 20 feet section"
Player: "So how far do I see with my Low Light Vision?"
DM: "20 feet"


And actually, I do not think they did it the way they did it because that is where they wanted the light to end. I think they did it that way for simplicity (i.e. get rid of 3e shadowy illumination).

No, I didn't claim that low light in 3rd edition ( a different game I might add, so the effects of low light vision there really aren't relevant ) was imbalanced. If people said, oh, low light vision should let you see invisible creatures ( gave it a benefit far more potent then intended) I would say it was imbalanced. Races in 3rd edition with low light vision had that benefit calculated into the racial abilities already. The difference here is that I was talking about taking an ability that is already balanced with a set of racial abilities, and in comparison to other racial abilities, and then house ruling it into something much better.

Low light vision lets you see in dim light. ( Though I didn't say that it doesn't make sense to house rule it. I said that the light range shouldn't be doubled. )

Using what I had suggested your example would read as follows.

DM: The torch lights up 20 feet in this section.
Player: So how far do I see with my Low Light Vision?
DM: 25 ( or 30 ) feet.

That is a definite benefit, but doesn't change the torch into a 10 radius light source, which it was not intended to be. Or change a lantern into a 20 radius light source, or a sunrod into a 40 radius light source.

Also in dim light conditions the low light character has a large advantage still.

 

[Stalker0]

I think the main advantage of low-light is outdoors at night. Ambuhses are common to a party in any edition of dnd, and since 4e doesn't contain a lot of magics that allow a party to rest undisturbed it should be more common.

In such a circumstance, low light can be very useful. Humans get penalties in the entire combat, unless spells like light are used. Elves have no penalties at all.

 

[Mistwell]

I think the main advantage of low-light is outdoors at night. Ambuhses are common to a party in any edition of dnd, and since 4e doesn't contain a lot of magics that allow a party to rest undisturbed it should be more common.

In such a circumstance, low light can be very useful. Humans get penalties in the entire combat, unless spells like light are used. Elves have no penalties at all.

Indeed, and characters that benefit most from stealth, such as rogues and rangers, will do better in moonlight (since everything offers concealment, and their stealth checks will be better because it's usually a trained skill for such characters). Which makes sense...that's when thieves and assassins usually make their move, at night.

 

[hamishspence]

sneak attacks

one of the big complaints about sneak atacking in 3rd ed was you needed to see the target clearly. Or was that Coup-de-grace? Anyway, they moaned that an assassin killing a sleeping guy in a dark room didn't actually work properly.

Is it any better in 4th ed?

 

[Mistwell]

Yes. Now, you need cover of concealment (or a distraction) to get the advantage of the stealth skill, and darkness/low-light grants concealment. One advantage of being stealthed is that its one way you can gain "combat advantage" for your attack, which grants you an attack bonus, and which is also required to use sneak attack.

 

[hamishspence]

sneak attacking visible, sleeping, concealed enemies

Doable? is evrything "concealed" when light level is low?